Monday, August 27, 2012

History and Holocaust Denial: Ronald Hutton and "Peregrin Wildoak"

by David Griffin

Despite our order inviting the ENTIRE Golden Dawn community to join us in building peace and despite our offering to share new Golden Dawn teachings from the Secret Chiefs with the entire GD community at the upcoming Golden Dawn Peace and Harmony Pow Wow...

...Believe it or not -  the 20 year old Witch Hunt against our order unsurprisingly continues unabaited - with Peregrin Wildoak (who hides his real name to avoid prosecution for libel) again using "anonymous" Sock and Meat Puppets to attack our order. 

For the benefit of new readers:
"Peregrin Wildoak" is a Historical Revisionist: 
  1. who never uses his real name, hiding instead behind anonymity to avoid prosecution for libel 
  2. who denies that there was any Pagan Holocaust at all 
  3. who disputes that there were any Pagans ever killed by the Inquisition at all, and 
  4. who even disputes that there ever were any Pagan or Egyptian mysteries! 

"Peregrin," while hiding behind anonymity, has been one of the most venomous attackers of our order in the 20 year Witch Hunt waged on the Internet against the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega.

Historical Revisionist
"Peregrin Wildoak"
In a desperate and highly transparent bid to maintain strife in the Golden Dawn community, Peregrin is again using sock puppets - in a fruitless attempt to scuttle the upcoming Golden Dawn Peace and Harmony Pow Wow in order to continue the two decades old Witch Hunt against our order. Clearly, there are those who would stop at nothing to prevent peace and harmony in the Golden Dawn community!

Unsurprisingly, Peregrin's latest "anonymous" sock again sets up and knocks down the same straw man arguments we have witnessed Peregrin publish time and time again, this time misrepresenting statements I have made critical of the scholorship of Professor Ronald Hutton of Bristol University.

For the benefit of new readers, Peregrin and his various sock/meat puppets have been republishing "ad nauseum" the same tired propaganda talking points on this subject over and over for years now, yet Peregrin never addresses even one scholorly objection to his straw man arguments!

In other words, the real question here is:

"Why is the anonymous "Peregrin Wildoak" and his sock and meat puppets so obsessed with the subject of Pagan survival since antiquity?" 

This is a highly relevant question, considering Peregrin's claim to have allegedly abandoned Paganism to become a Buddhist convert, whereas Peregrin instead consistently writes as a Christian propagandist and has even bragged about being a Christian apologist. Add to this Peregrin's utter obsession with the subject of Pagan survival since antiquity in his writings, and something begins to smell as fishy as an outdoor fish market on a hot summer's afternoon.

To avoid confusion arising from Peregrin's socks' latest propaganda, below I repeat my "actual" objections to Prof. Hutton's scholorship in "Triumph of the Moon." I might add that Hutton has never addressed these criticisms, even though he has replied to several other issues I raised here.

Demigod Professor - Ronald "Q" Hutton

Triumph of the Moon is a monumental study for which Professor Hutton deserves accolades regarding the origins of Wicca in Southern England. However, Hutton clearly states in Triumph that the scope of his study is limited to Wicca in Southern England.

My primary objection is the manner in which Hutton, in later chapters of Triumph, makes sweeping generalizatioins about the lack of survival of elements of ancient Paganism in Continental Europe without providing a single shred of historical data to to back up such unprofessional statements, which completely violate the stated scope of Hutton's study.

That Hutton disproved the origin claims in antiquity of Wicca in BRITAIN is one thing. That he makes unsubstantiated, sweeping judgements on the rest of the European continent is quite another matter, however, especially when the scope of Triumph of the Moon was limited to Wicca in southern England. The greatest problem with Hutton, in my opinion, is that, in his anglo-centered world view, Hutton conflates Wicca with Witchcraft.

Secondly, if Hutton truly discounts "oral tradition," why does he rely so heavily on it in Chapter 20 of Triumph?

Finally, my most important objection to Triumph is the way that Hutton cites personal anecdote as though it were data. Hutton may be a respected historian, but he is not an anthropologist and lacks training in the rigors of the ethnographic method.

Had Hutton not violated the stated scope of "Triumph of the Moon" and had he not tried to play anthropologist by presenting personal anecdote and conjecture as though it were data, Triumph might have deserved the fauning praise it has gotten from the anonymous "Peregrin" and his various sock and meat puppets. Sadly, however, as a fatal flaw, Hutton violated several fundamental rules of academia in an otherwise fine study.

Regarding the actual survival of elements of Paganism since antiquity, Professor Paolo Portone, president of the CIRE institute of ethno-historical research, has shown in his article, "Aradia, Myth and Reality of Witchcraft," how the myth of the "evil witch" was made up by the Inquisition out of whole cloth from the remnants in Italy of the Pagan cult of Diana, the Lady of the Game, or Domina Ludi. Portone's argument is compelling, taken directly from the trials of Sibilla and Pierina before the Inquisitor of Milan, first in 1384 and then again in 1390.

Finally, I have several times suggested that historians of ancient Paganism have been looking in the wrong place for traces of elements of Pagan survival since antiquity, as they have never yet bothered to examine in this context in the texts and rich imagery of Hermetic alchemy!

Finally, an open message to the anonymous "Peregrin":
You are not fooling anyone. EVERYONE sees through your sock and meat puppetry.
Unlike you, I have no need to to hide behind fake names or the skirt tails of "anonymous" sock puppets. Unlike you, I use my REAL name. 
If I have something to say, Peregrin, I say it to your face like I am now, and I stand behind MY words like a man. Are you not man enough to take responsibility for YOUR words under YOUR real name? 
Or are you just afraid your GD students will call you on your stirring strife in the GD community yet AGAIN? 
In any case, you and your socks are the only ones still stiring strife in the GD community today. 
Keep it up, Peregrin, and you will share the same fate as Robert Zink, with your GD students voting with their feet. 
The time for Peace and Harmony in the Golden Dawn community is NOW, whether Peregrin Wildoak and his anonymous puppets like it or not. 
- David Griffin
99% of the Golden Dawn community wants peace and harmony and an end to 20 years of internet bullshit causing strife in the our community.  Don't miss the International Golden Dawn Peace and Harmony Pow Wow, March 29 - April 9, 2013 near Las Vegas, Nevada.

EVERYONE is invited - Even the 1% still attacking our order. What a great way to put strife behind us - by all sitting down, relaxing, and sharing together as brothers and sisters!

Come share a full week of good food, good company, and new magic released especially for this occasion by the Secret Chiefs of the Golden Dawn's Third Order! You can find complete Pow Wow details here.

We look forward to receiving you at Alpha Omega Temple.

Your Hosts,
David and Leslie Griffin


  1. Bravo for standing up to Peregrin and his cyber-stalker puppets. Don't let them get you down. They are merely envious of the teachings coming from the Third Order since they themselves have published everything they have and as a consequence are spiritually bankrupt.

  2. Thank you for inviting the entire Golden Dawn community to the Pow Wow. I for one will definitely be there. Not even threats of expulsion from my own order could keep me away.

  3. Anyone with half a brain can see right through Wildoak - he's always spoken from a Trinitarian Christian perspective, whatever version of Buddhism he added to his repertoire.

    Maybe someone is paying him to stir strife - there must be a reason for his obsession with keeping the hate campaign moving.

    He's evidently not a very spiritual person! All that hatred and bitterness... it really is unhealthy, and I for one hope that his students will try and talk some sense into him - SOON!

  4. Time to either Forgive (Christian), Ignore (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali) or integrate opinionated others as one Universal Self (Buddhism)...instead of using our desires to attack others. From the Hermetic point of view "Every ascent begins with the ability to deny yourself something" (Georg Lomer) disagree is fine, civilised even, but let us be sure that we don't do it so intensely that it affects our energetic body whose focus should always be to indeed Ascend through dramaturgy, ritual, and theurgy - ALL through Brotherhood. So should we 'charge' Brotherhood with intent rather than - as in sigil work - the critical words of those who hate us and our HOGD history / lineage .

    Inner LVX to all.
    Fr V.m.l

  5. Call me naive, but I am disappointed with Morgan Eckstein of Bast Temple. When he was here the other day, I actually believed him that he was interested in peace in the Golden Dawn community!

    Sadly, has become clear today that Morgan couldn't give two farts in a skillet about peace in the Golden Dawn community if it means he can get a cheap laugh at the expense of every single member of the Alpha Omega. Morgan only cares about playing the class clown at the expense of the entire Golden Dawn community, including his own students.

    Any time any anonymous troll attacks the AO, Morgan jumps on board as head cheerleader. Some things will never change.

    This morning, if I were a member of Bast Temple or of BIORC, I would be thinking long and hard about the lack of maturity involved in this, and if I really support such behavior.

    My heart goes out to all of my GD Brothers and Sisters in Bast Temple and BIORC. I don't blame you for such infantile antics at the expense of peace. I know that you are all better than this and deserve better too. See you at the Pow Wow.

  6. Peregrin is forced to set up the "Straw Man" arguments, even indirectly through a crass and foul-mouthed blogger, because he and his cadre of calculated chaos are not actually trying to debate any real issues, but rather are attempting to discredit and defame that which they do not understand.

    This is the product of fear and insecurity. How can anyone take seriously anything Peregrin has to say, directly or indirectly, when he holds that Christianity is the progenitor of all that came BEFORE it, with such a bold, but clearly erroneous statement that: "the Western Esoteric Tradition was created for and by Christians."

    The following quotation, in my understanding, aptly describes in large part what is veiled by Christianity and THAT WHICH WENT BEFORE IT.

    "There is but one god and one goddess, but many are their powers and names: Jupiter, Sol, Apollo, Moses, Christus, Luna, Ceres, Proserpina, Tellus, Maria. But have a care in speaking these things. They should be hidden in silence as are the Eleusinian mysteries; sacred things must needs be wrapped in fable and enigma. ...You, since Jupiter, the Best and Greatest God, is propitious to you, may despise lesser gods in silence. When I say Jupiter, understand me to mean Christ and the true God."

    Konrad Mutian (Latin: Conradus Mutianus) (1470 – 1526)

    This was written by Konrad Mutian, a Neoplatonic mystic, back in the days when it was dangerous to speak openly against the Christian religion. It reminds us that many wise men and women, who were professed "Christians," were not actually "Christians," but for the sake of their safety and for the preservation of the mysteries, they CLOTHED themsleves in the myth of Christ.

    To hold that Christianity did not invade, attempt to stamp out, and co-opt pagan thought as its own, and in doing so did not employ fear, murder, and eternal damnation as tools for this purpose--indicates that Pergrin and his compadres are simply either undeducated in the subject matter, or there is something more devious afoot.

  7. @Nemesis,

    I agree with your assessment of Morgan's conduct with his recent blog. I can think of absolutely no reason for him to post his "thoughts" and to support a crude and foul-mouthed troll, to draw attention to this troll's rants, other than to continue to stir the pot he claims he is not standing over.

    Earlier Morgan stated that one cannot have peace while continuing to be kicked in the head. This is most certainly a true statement, which begs the question: Morgan, why do you keep kicking us in the head without provocation? Is it because you don't want peace and are doing what you can to ensure that conflict continues?

  8. @Morgan

    Do you still honestly question why you lack, and desire, respect?

  9. Is this the real Morgan? We have seen him post thoughtfully from his better nature before now, so I prefer to send him good wishes for a speedy recovery from what ails him.

    Maybe he is not very good at setting aside grievances for the greater good? Some people will hold grudges until the day they die, (probably early since these attitudes badly poison the organs...)

    He is not just doing an injustice to his own members in BIORC, he is ignoring the positive desire for peace throughout our common community and beyond. This is not only about GD, but about the whole Esoteric Community and the reach we have there.

    Mature leaders will take up that burden of wider responsibility, accept that it is NOT all about them and their hurt feelings, and start to work for Peace. Even terrorists are capable of this when their communities are no longer behind the violence - it is high time that GD Leaders started acting like Leaders, by embracing this opportunity for Peace!

  10. @ Morgan

    Despite this oddly hostile outburst, you are still welcome at the Pow Wow, Brother.

    Peace in the Golden Dawn community is too important to be derailed by the ravings of anonymous trolls desperate for attention...

    ...or even by lapses in judgement by those of us who certainly ought to know better.

    I personally have no doubt that logic and your higher nature shall yet prevail.

    I am convinced that I continue to do the right thing by continuing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    - David Griffin

  11. Terrence Hannibal GayAugust 28, 2012 at 10:30 AM

    Please tell me the location for this Golden Dawn group. When I first contacted several temples in America, GB, and Germany I have been receiving emails without any information other than Golden Dawn. Every group claims to be the "real" inheritors of Golden Dawn's legacy, but I wonder why every single email I get from different groups refuse to identify their location?

    I have always been drawn to Golden Dawn as a professional group of adepts. I have conversed with Thelemists in San Francisco and true to their insane founder, A.Crowley, they are all quite insane. Yet I am seeing similar petty conflicts between various Golden Dawn chapters. Where is this Temple located? Are you true Golden Dawn adepts or are you becoming Thelemistas?

    If you have one member causing trouble, then shun him. Don't respond to him and block his url. It will escalate for a while and then he will leave. He seeks attention and being a petty little man, he causes conflict as the only way to be recognized. Flogging is also a remedy, but he might actually enjoy that, so try ignoring him. Good luck and please identify your location. If this is the London group, the birthplace of my distant ancestor, then please state so. - T.H.G. the Brigadier

  12. @ Terrence Hannibal Gay

    We are lineal descendants of the original 1888 Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega, founded by S.L. MacGregor Mathers in 1909.

    Your suggestion that we merely ignore those who attack the reputation of our order is well intentioned, but quite naive. What is going on here is a well orchestated Witch Hunt to destroy our order being carried out behind the scenes by an external group intent on a hostile takeover of the entire Golden Dawn community.

    You will find a complete list of the locations of our traditional Gollden Dawn Temples and Sanctuaries at:

  13. And Nick Farrell's response to Peace Initiatives? Trawlng through the archives seeking fodder for yet more attacks on Mathers...

    I am a member of the MOAA. At least I was until today. I have had enough of this hypocrisy.

    It is becomming painfully obvious that the LAST thing Farrell and his friends want is peace in the Golden Dawn community, yet they try to blame you for their own sins.

    I have had enough. I quit.

    1. @ Anonymous

      I saw that Farrell is again publishing Alpha Omega documents as his answer to the latest peace initiative.

      How sad. You are, of course, still welcome at the Pow Wow next Spring, as is Mr. Farrell, despite his short sighted and misguided aggression against Mathers and the Alpha Omega.

      I will point out, however, that Farrell also continues to try to twist these acts of senseless profanation into yet more attacks on Mathers based purely on Farrell's fantasies of being psychoanalist capable of reading people's minds across Centuries.

      Sincerus Renatus wrote a fine rebuttal to this latest silliness from Farrell today at:

  14. So there you have it, the response to our latest peace initiative from the leaders of the McGoldenDawn franchises.

    1. Peregrin is using anonymous sock puppets to attack our order with vile language.

    2. Morgan is cheering on the anonymous trolls to continue attacking our order, and

    3. Farrell is again publishing our confidential, historical documents while fabricating even more attack stories on MacGregor Mathers.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. At least now everyone knows exactly WHO is responsible for all of the strife in the Golden Dawn community.

    Anonymous, I salute you for your courage in getting out of Farrell's snares. Based on his public behavior, I certainly would not want that man anywhere near shepherding my spiritual development. In my opinion, you are a lot better off without him. I look forward to meeting you at the Pow Wow.

  15. I am reposting here what I posted at GH Fra SR's blog in response to Farrell's latest time travel mud slinging at Mathers:

    Thank you GH Fra. SR for explaining this most basic misunderstanding/misinformation promulgated by Farrell. It is obvious that Farrell is determined to "find" something to continue to tar Mathers with, even something as scant and easily explainable as his purported confusion with the Tarot attributions he discusses.

    Yes, Paul Foster Case was an AO adept. By virtue of this, PFC has thoroughly explained, in both his public work and in his more restricted teachings to students, what Farrell tries to label as a purposeful "blind" by Mathers, made upon his students because of a lack of trust and a personality flaw.

    Farrell must KNOW this as a result of his BOTA background.

    Once again, Farrell isolates a single piece of paper and what is contained thereon and attempts to examine it in a vacuum, intermittently showered with wild and negative speculation. Farrell is grasping at straws to further an agenda against groups that are not like his.

  16. The documents Farrell has/is published were initially delivered to sincere students, whom had undertaken an oath to safeguard the physical document itself, as well as the verbatim information contained thereon.

    Farrell knows this, but deigns to treat these documents as "historical" research that he is entitled to paw through and profane, because they come from a "dead" order that no longer exists.

    With this kind of attitude and lack of respect for prior serious oaths and sacred materials, one could theoretically justify an archaeologist desecrating the sacred site of a native American burial ground. When the native Americans protest such desecration of their ancestors and LIVING sacred practices, the archaeologist only need say "you have no connection to these artifacts--they are from a dead time and you don't own them. I can do with this as I please."


  17. Farrell is insane to publish your confidential documents. Such individuals obviously have no sense of the sacred. How can they possible lead the spiritual growth of others?

    1. Farrell is still up to the same? I thought crazy crap was only Robert Zink. You always pay one way or another. If not with money, then with crazy. Buyer beware!

  18. Curious. No one sees your trademark on the materials in question.

    1. To begin with, the applicable law would be copyright law, not trademark law. The issue here is not even copyright law, however, as the length of time of protection is limited. For example, all of the writings of Aleister Crowley or even as recent as Israel Regardie are no longer protected by the relevant copyrights.

      The issue is rather one of the sanctity of initiatic materials, which is a principle upheld by all legitimate initiatic societies throughout history. Clearly, those who do not respect the sanctity of the secrecy of initiatic materials call their own legitimacy thereby into question.

      This is the major point of contention between traditional Golden Dawn orders like the HOGD and the Alpha Omega, which continue the original lineages of the Golden Dawn through the Third Order, and Golden Dawn reconstructionists like Mr. Farrell and his colleagues, who believe that the Golden Dawn is a dead tradition with which they can do what they want to, including destroy things as fundamental as traditional initiation, replacing them with New Age "astral" initiation and "Self-Initiation" which are not only of dubious and highly questionable effectiveness, but have noting at all to do with the traditional Golden Dawn.

    2. Then why do you own three trademarks ?

    3. To protect the Golden Dawn tradition from the abuse of candidates, including financial and even sexual abuse of children, by McGD franchise owners like Robert Zink. How is that for starters?

    4. Trade marks control trade not morals

    5. Actually, this has all been covered many times before. For example, see the trademark information page on our website at:

      Here is one relevant quote:

      "A trademark is a distinctive name, phrase, symbol, design, picture, or style used by the public to recognize an organization or business. The intent of trademark law is to protect the public from deception regarding the source of origin of a product or service as well as the type of service that they believe is being offered. Our outer order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, was founded in the Britain in 1888. Today, we are the exclusive owners of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn® trademark in all twenty-seven countries of the European Union (EU OHIM reg. 000063925)."

  19. @anon and the trademark comment:

    This snide comment only illustrates my earlier point. We are not talking about legal rights here, but ethical and spiritual duties and obligations to honor an initiatory oath of another initiate or order. There is no doubt that these materials were initially issued under the strictures of an oath. Farrell, being a leader of a Golden Dawn based magical order, knows this.

    This argument about not having a trademark, which I think the poster meant copyright, is specious in the context of oathbound materials being published and profaned by Farrell, an initiate who knows full well the ramifications of what he is doing.

    1. True It is clear that there is no copyright

  20. It would be easier to grasp if it were just the difference between Traditionalist and Reconstructionist approaches... that dynamic is well played out in other fields and we might expect some of those same issues here.

    There is something much darker with the behaviour of Farrell & Co. This Witch Hunt against Alpha Omega has obviously been driven by those who want to DESTROY the Traditional GD, not simply to represent a different approach.

    The Pow Wow is the best way forward for this community - and those who continue to attack and defame will eventually become relics in our history... we will just all move forwards without them.

  21. Caveat Emptor.

    One can buy into the realm of those who defame and disrespect others - such as Farrell historically, through his books and other writings...

    One can choose to believe in Astral Initiation and Self-initiation as adequate vehicles in the Great Work...

    One can even choose to believe that there are no genuine Living Lineages through the Third Order, and claim that we are all DEAD... ;-)

    [One may even choose to censor all claims to the contrary, though it will just damage your own reputations to do that.]

    Or one can choose to follow the Path under the guidance of the Third Order's chosen vehicles, using time tested and traditional methods of Initiation.

    Alpha Omega & HOGD do not profane the teachings of others, and fully respect Oaths and Lineages.

    Anyone who wants to choose purist Reconstructionism should just go in peace, and follow that path. Such people are simply unsuited to what we have to offer. Good luck to them!

    Attacking us for being out here as the Traditional Hermetic AO & HOGD is however not OK!

    Each approach can leave the other in Peace. Period. That is what 99.9% of people want; but the usual few bad apples are still out to stir strife! (It is hardly even necessary to name names any longer... we all know who they are.)

  22. "Unlike you, I use my REAL name." Really? I suppose you will tell us next that George Washington is your real name and that you are his reincarnation or something to that effect. Or that the numerous sock poppets you use in your covert blog attacks against other GD orders are really other people. Get a life man!

  23. @Anon, or is that @Anon? Or maybe you are really @Anon... oh well, who knows, and really who cares!

    What an amazing surfeit of tripe in such a short statement. You deserve extra marks for the density of inanity, but not quite "Troll of the Week" status unfortunately. Do try a little harder next time - we are especially saving those for later satires! ;-)

    1) Yes, our Imperator does use his real name, even when assuming a godform you will see that name in the title;

    2) Claims that we have some kind of authority in our field as a result of re-incarnation or some other astrally "verified" source of evidence are not made in AO/HOGD - that might sit better in a Reconstructionist model, not this one;

    3) There are no sock puppets here - just the voices of those GD members who find that one way they can serve the wider community is by standing against misrepresentations, lies, and ultimately outright crime (see the reasons why we defend Trademark, above.) The suggestion that this is all one man's work is beyond laughable!

    4) Covert Blogs? Huh? What on earth are you talking about??? The only covert blogs we are aware of are the many back-doors used historically against us in direct contravention of the Legal Settlement Agreement (which is published fact - and was specifically spoken against by the Judge.)

    No. We do not need covert blogs when we have very substantial and well respected blogs like this one as our public presence;

    5) Attacks against other GD Orders? You are using the old MirrorTroll distortion here. You and your buddies have been launching the defamations and other attacks against HOGD - Alpha Omega for decades now. We have been DEFENDING against your misrepresentations... that is why you continually stoop to this transparent lie and accuse US of being the aggressors.

    What part of "you leave us alone and we will leave you alone" do you fail to understand? It isn't that hard... but maybe you don't want to accept it because you are hellbent on destroying the entire GD community by maintaining the Witch Hunt?

    That is how it looks to most honest viewers by now. You are so busted;

    6) We have lives thank you. Your tirade of nested insults is all water off a duck's back. Not one word of this is original, it is just talking point suey!

    Your attacks on our Imperator are attacks on our organisation, and really, this petty little show of shallowness should be set beside the factual conditions right now:

    David and Leslie are not even able to reside safely in their own home as a DIRECT result of the kind of hatred that you and your kind harbour.

    EVERYONE can see you for what you are @Anon Hate Troll;

    7) I doubt very much that you are even a GD member at all, so I guess I won't be seeing you at the Pow Wow - our Peace process really sticks in your craw doesn't it!

    Tell you what - stop reading this blog, just ignore us - it will make you feel better... maybe you can even turn your own life around, you know? Quit the hatred and the twisted misrepresentations? They are only making you ill in the long run.

    The Light is there for you too - just turn to it in your own way!

    We will be seeing the genuine Golden Dawn Community at the Pow Wow - and sharing LVX with them!

  24. @Anonymous

    It is a shame you want nothing more than to cause others strife for your own amusement. Your argument doesn't even make sense. He has pictures. He is able to be googled and researched. The man has books out. Then again, your aim isn't to have a logical retort. It is simply to cause strife and anguish.

    Now I don't know you. You don't know me. I can bet we have a lot of things in common though. Just as I am sure we have plenty of things not in common. I think we can both agree that needless suffering and being bullied for no reason goes against both of our beliefs. Please stop. We can respect our differences and even engage them in a civilized manner. How is one to grow if they only see one side of the argument, being one's personal side that is. This is why those who say we censor others is complete lies. As anyone can see here, we allow anyone to post here. Even if they are attempting to troll and cause strife. We are pretty liberal here.

    So why not step down from your "scorched earth" tactics and have an open discussion with us. No throwing mud at us. No silly arguments. Lets have an honest discussion and compare our view points.

    The Golden Dawn community is tired of this. I am sure you are probably tired of this. Engage us with respect and I promise we shall show respect as well.

  25. Calling someone a "historical revisionist" is a cheap trick, I am disappointed to see it being used here. The phrase has the unfortunate connotation of "Jew-hater" or "Nazi", when in fact, history often NEEDS revising to the truth. Would it be better if we all accepted the previously unassailable version of history taught by the Church? It is a slur producing deep unconscious unease and mind shutdown in most people, due to media programming, and should not even be one. Bad on 2 counts. Outside of that, your arguments are sound. There is no doubt the A.O. has been vilified.

    1. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not jues merely repeating talking points for propaganda value but are not merely not a regular reader of this blog and thus are unaware that all of your arguments have already been dealt with over and over.


      The point is that genocide is genocide...

      and shoultd NOT happen AT ALL..

      ...nor should it ever be forgotten. The Jewish and Pagan Holocausts are just two examples of many tragic genocidal occurences. Rwanda, for example, comes to mind in the more recent past.

      There is NO EXCUSE for any of this. And there is NO EXCUSE for a writer using his author's ethos to deny or try to whitewash genocide. This is precisely what the anonymous "Peregrin" is doing, even using many of the identical propaganda strategies used by historical revisionists denying the Jewish Holocaust (questioning the4 number of actual dead, claiming that it was not Religiously motivated, etc.)

      If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, despite the denial, chances are, its a duck!

      Whitewash or forget the past is to pave the way for renewed tragedies of the future.

      Neither the Jewish community nor the Pagan community should allow historical revisionists to open the possibility of future tragedy.

    2. And the Golden Dawn must embrace seekers of all faiths, including Jews, Muslims, Pagans, and even Thelemites. The "Trinitarian Christians only" segregationism that has gained a foothold in the GD community, shall NEVER be allowed in the Alpha Omega.

      Diversity is important. Diversity is good.

  26. @Anonymous and the revisionist comment:

    It is axiomatic that the conquerors write the history. Oft times that history is slanted or created from whole cloth to suit the victors' desired image. This "history," over time, becomes accepted and systemically propogated, so that even otherwise objective historians are caught up in the distortions, especially if they have any sort of bias, conscious or unconscious, toward the accepted established paradigm for whatever reason. You are right that such "revised" history should be corrected to the actual facts, but such corrections are not "revisions" as that term is commonly used when referring to someone as an "historical revisionist."

    In the context of this discussion, the "historical revisionists" are attempting to manipluate an acceptance of distorted historical causes and effects--Such as the claims that the Egyptian mysteries never existed and that the Western Esoteric Tradition was created by Christians for Christians. This is a form of unethical time travel--an attempt to "change" the past--wherein these "revisionists" wish to alter or create people's perceptions of the past and to lend false validity to the "revisionsits'" contemporary agenda.

    It is insidious and fits the definition of "revisionist" in my book, notwithstanding the collateral associations the term carries.