Yesterday, Nick Farrell published an article entitled, "The Magical Order of the Aurora Aurea is not a Golden Dawn Group" that you can read HERE. In this astonishing article, Mr. Farrell forever disavows the Golden Dawn:
"MOAA continues to be ...
... a traditional magic order ...
... but is not ...
...a traditional Golden Dawn order."
To abjure a tradition such as the Golden Dawn, with such a long, proven a track record in making Magicians - in order to create an order according to one's own personal vision - is a step as ambitious as it is audacious.
In their departure from the Golden Dawn, I congratulate Mr. Farrell for his courage - and wish the students of the Magical Order of the Aurora Aurea all the best in the new direction they have embarked upon.
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Interestingly, Nick Farrell today posted that he would no longer describe the MOAA in GD terms. It seems odd to me that someone dedicated enough to the GD tradition to publish and edit commentaries on the Flying Rolls would separate himself and his order from the GD tradition -- at least in name.
ReplyDeleteAmong the oddities to me was that he seemed to suggest that no longer describing his order in GD terms would separate the Order from the GD egregore; I didn't think that simply re-describing the order would be sufficient for such separation: as long as the practices are still GD practices, aren't they still connected to some degree? Also, he seemed to suggest that the egregore itself was limiting and hindering magickal development, "the ghost of a long dead and dysfunctional order". I'm new enough at this to be swimming in unfamiliar waters, but this seems like a very curious set of ideas.
If nothing else, NF seems to misunderstand the function of tradition. Tradition doesn't limit development but carries on ideals and knowledge which help to form its new developments. If he finds a vital, living tradition -- as GD magic is -- limiting, it is probably his own understanding and relationship to tradition that is the issue, not the tradition itself.
Naturally, I am not suggesting that NF might not know what he is doing. He surely must know better than I do. And perhaps it is better that he separate himself that way, for him and for others. It's just that the announcement seemed very curious and the reasons adduced for the separation did not seem like they would justify a complete separation. I was left with the feeling that someone else must be up than what is being said. And why not work toward purifying the egregore rather than separating? I don't know... again my newness at this may be why I don't understand...
As with the previous responder, I don't know how one can divorce an egrigore simply by saying it is so. OTOH, we have no idea what kind of magical working NF has done to *make* it so.
ReplyDeleteThese comments raise some fascinating questions. What is it that defines an egregore like the Golden Dawn. Is it merely a name? Is it the initiation rituals? The grade structure? The magical system? Or what else?
ReplyDeleteIt appears to me that what NF has done amounts to something like.
"Well, now I live in Italy, so now I will no longer be Nick Farrell. Instead, now I am Nick Berlusconi. Hey, everybody, look! Now I am Nick Berlusconi!"
The only problem is that Nick still stays in the same house, married to the same wife, still comes from the same family, and continues to work at the same job.
Has Nick really created a new egregore merely by claiming to be a Berlusconi? Does he, for example, suddenly own half of the mass media in Italy?
Still, Nick clearly deserves the benefit of the doubt. He says he has abandoned the Golden Dawn to go off and create MOAA according to his personal vision. He should be taken at his word and wished all the success in the world with the new Farrell tradition.
Ave Imperator L.e.S
ReplyDeleteWhat defines the Golden Dawn. I asked Frank Salt the very same question, when he gave over coven permissions to set up a temple back in the early days. According to Frank Salt, the *grade ceremonies* are what is sacred to the Golden Dawn. If strongly empressed that the ceremonies must be maintained as the kernel of the tradition. Obviously the grade structure is contained within the ceremonies as Ani
transverses the Paths.
Frank also felt strongly that the name Golden Dawn should not be used any longer. The magical system itself, with its Kabbalah, Enochian, etc and various correspondences and associations were to him a question of style. As they are also to me.
In our Order the Et Custosi Tutelae we have modified some Qabalistic and alchemical associations of Mather's method, to better to fit our system within the eCT... however we maintain the integrity of the classical & traditional initiation ceremony's of the Golden Dawn.
In my view is that: providing Nick Farrell is still using the Golden Dawn ceremonies, then he is still connected to its egregore. Egregores are like vines on the grape, they can be modified and redirected according to the temples methods.
No matter where our personal style takes us, we must
perserve the ceremonies to be a Golden Dawn Order,
under whatever name we choose for ourself.
Mr. F. wrote a long missive on egregores this morning, attempting to justify his theory that a rose by any other name is no longer a rose.
DeleteI truly wish NF and his MOAA students all the best with his new "Nick Farrell" egregore and magical tradition.
Thanks for letting me know. I have replied to Nick F regarding why he is mistaken in terms of egregores.
DeleteMore importantedly I am shocked that Nick would state: "claim that the rituals are important to the Golden Dawn egregore is pretty bogus." eoq. The rituals contain the essence of the Golden Dawn. How Nick could say such a thing, is distressing.
My posting to Nick F blog seems to have technical problems, so i will post a similar here.
DeleteFirstly .. a simple fact about egregores.
1. Egregores are NOT spirits. Egregores are best described as psychic pools. A collective psychism.
2. Spirits are a completely different thing.. entity's ghosts, disembodied beings etc...
This is kind of magick basics. Spirits are this thing, Egregores are this other.
Anyone whom has worked the Grimories, Voodoo, Witchcraft will know alittle bit about spirits and have experienced them.
To think egregores are spirits, and then discuss egregores 101 with such a fundamental error .. well makes me sigh.
Additionally a part of the FARC type alchemical work involves scyre-ing into the astral realms.. and the levels where egregores are formed. It is very interesting to watch an egregore change shape, its branches (like tenacles) grow as per a vine. This is not a confused view. It is how egregores (psychic pools) work from my own subjective astral viewing of egregores and the process.
This is why in the R+C traditions, the teachings and work try to minimise egregores as much as possible - to assist in the initiates freedom. It is but one view.
A lot could be said about GD rituals.. that is another discussion. However I am dynamically opposed to Nick F' view that the GD ceremonies don't matter for the GD egregore.
Another thought aside, this is a strange turn of events from someone whom represented
the GD Community in a publication, which as far as I know the HOGD/AO was not invited. The GD Community hailed for a publication, and yet the same person rejects the GD egregore and its ceremonies ?!
I must be confused.
All this is really unfortunate
DeleteA group whose activity centers around the personal vision of a charismatic leader belongs to a long tradition of personality cults.
ReplyDeleteI don't think this can all happen as easily as NFs description suggests. To opt out of participating in an egregore would seem to require altering one's spiritual attunement and basic habits of mind/soul. I don't think it is simply a matter of a choice of what to identify with.
ReplyDeleteBut yes best of luck to him on this endeavor.
Since time immemorial,(Personality it has been the problem of so called HUMANS,especially in the realms of occultism,we try to act humble,but the (Ego)still there, & wants the glories,every where one has been,some problem,comes along,or some one got illuminated,& the (Teachings are no longer any good) they become channels of something else,this is all (EGO) center.It is called battle for power.please be abedient,work on your (EGO)THE TEACHINGS ARE PURE,.in L.V.X-Xilef.
ReplyDeleteNick has been very active to criticize and finding faults in other GD orders and their members. It maybe natural that he find tradition not suitable to him anymore. It is interesting that Nick made desicion to abandon GD tradition after meeting person who he though to be Secret Chief. Nick told that he didn't like that person and refused to accept improvements to MOAA that Secret Chief offered to do. Then Nick concluded that if he couldnt follow his secret chief, then he couldnt follow anymore whole tradition. Therefore We can just hope and pray that he dont feel anymore need to find faults in GD, since he has anymore nothing to do with it.
ReplyDeleteAmen to that yet ....
Deletelets not kid ourselves.. Nick's new Order is called Auroa Aurea. Do you think that
- by calling something Aurora Aurea (Latin for Golden Dawn) is truthfully intending have to nothing to with the GD egregore.. ?!
- and by using GD symbols in the Order (even those in the Order emblem) still has nothing to do with GD egregore ?!
- and by using GD ceremonies, has nothing to do with the GD egregore. ?!
- and to " Fuse the Inner and Outer plane traditions of the Smaragdum Thallasses (as expressed by the Dion Fortune tradition and the pure Golden Dawn" has nothing to do with the GD egregore. ?!
- and "To continue to study and adapt the Smaragdum Thallasses system" has nothing to do with the GD egregore.
Nick is quite content to criticise the GD egregore, which is something all GD adepts
should take offense at. And yet IMO be a total hypocrite and still use the GD egregore, though pretending it is not GD !
Sounds like major Bull Shit to me.
David,
ReplyDeleteI was recently part of a discussion on facebook in which some things really exploded between Nick and some others. I have some serious concerns here. To be honest about my leanings, I
do not come down on one side or the other. I have some major concerns here, however. A such i will quote myself from the thread in the hopes that I might get some perspective from you.
The whole thing ignited over comment I made over his most recent book, 'The secret teachings of the Missing Golden Dawn Order ', when i asked "how does this differ from Pat's project?"
things REALLY kicked off after that. It made me sad to see some of the hate and pettiness come out on both sides. I would like to get your input on this, David. I said, quite simply :
"I will not qualify myself with what grade I am or what lineage i belong to. The only thing I wanted to know was how Nick Farrell's project was different from what Pat tried to do. If
magic is about the betterment of the self then I have only to hope to transcend the need to bicker and lambast. Please, understand that we have a beautiful tradition in front of us. And
that tradition is going to be commented on. I think Regardie's publication of the material actually saved the G:. D:. in many ways.
The insulation it has provided has been very effectual in remaining 'secret'. The provision of so much noise to mask the 'signal' or current, if you will, has been a blessing in many
ways. Decentralization, in this capacity, is NOT the enemy IMO. When the student is ready, the teacher appears and the 'signal' makes itself known. This is how it happened for me. Best
of Luck to all of you and peace find it's way into your hearts, and good luck on this project, Nick."
I then connected to a link from wikipedia that pertains to signal to noise ratio. If this seems odd to anyone, I encourage you to go there an and read the link with the thought process
in mind that I mention in the comment above.
I then stated:
"the 'wannabes', as you put it [referring to a certain commenter], are the noise in which the signal is embedded. I am fine with this Jeff. There are many paths to the same peak, most
choose to read rather than walk. Some, walk these paths and find their own ways. Who am I to begrudge them this journey? [...] In many capacities these 'distractions' act as filters.
ReplyDeleteThose who come to the current are meant to be there. Those hung up on the distractions stay on the periphery, but, at the end of the day the thing that matters is that they have
expressed the want or need to better themselves."
One of the individuals apologized, which i found to be very big of them. I had been reading the unfolding of this drama with such sadness. I responded to this individual with this:
"He has apologized. Nick is gone, sadly. I think this entire thing has been an example of what has gone off with our fraternity. Fraters and Sorors, can I ask everyone if they would be
willing to meet each other with their best intentions? It is the WORK that matters, not us as individuals, right? Not those who seek to be luminaries, not those who agree or disagree... it is the WORK. We need to start putting our principles BEFORE our personalities. In this i see a bit of truth to what Nick has said about the state of health of our current. [And I agreed with you here, David, when i said:] We need to work on healing, not on further fracturing, in my opinion.
That said, substantive debates can be had over particulars [...] but the turn to attacks when our best intentions are not there, when we see ourselves as being 'above' or 'excluded' from others. We are, after all, still of the world, though we attempt not to be in it, right? Let's let the work lead us... shall we?[...] This is just my opinion, but we MUST begin treating our Egregore as a precious thing. It MUST be cultivated and maintained and cruelty and meanness do it harm. Our group conscious does not need to be in full agreement or unanimity... this leads to stagnation. However, disagreements do NOT need to descend into attacks that communicate hate... especially when debating the WORK and it's veracity. When we "quit the darkness and seek the light", THIS is what we do! When we treat each other badly we have become oath breakers in this capacity. The question is, how do we heal?"
I would really like to get your input on this David. Please understand that I come with nothing more that love for the work in my heart. There is a way and there is a will, I see this clearly. We must find our common ground first, and I believe this is the WORK itself. My group's (as meager as our energy is) next working will be to see that come to fruition. Every step you all take on this path, I love your all the more for.
Thank you for your consideration and please know that I offer these comments with all humility.
Fondly,
Christopher Bailey
DeleteDear Christopher,
Where exactly did this bickering occur? I would appreciate it if you would cross-post some of the relevant bits here instead of just heresay about the interaction.
All I really know is Nick is complaining about being attacked by trolls. I can certainly sympathise with him if that is the case, as I have not infrequently been the object of anonymous troll attacks myself. Over the years, readers have witnessed anonymous websites, anonymous blogs, and entire Yahoo Groups all come and go that existed solely to defame Golden Dawn leaders and orders.
Such things harm the entire Golden Dawn tradition.
About what Nick is so upset about, all I really know so far are rumors. Someone said something about something somewhere (on Facebook?). So I tried to join a unknown Golden Dawn Facebook Forum yesterday.
To my surprise, my membership request was denied.
Is this perhaps the place you are referring to?
Sign. Sadly it appears yet another venue has been created to stir strife and defame Golden Dawn leaders and orders. Let us hope this is not the case.
How long will sectarian silliness continue in the G.D. community. The Alpha Omega will have none of it.
Two years in a row we have invited the entire Golden Dawn community to our yearly Spring festivals, to break bread and to better get to know one another.
Sadly certain GD leaders threatened members with expulsion if they came. I am baffled by the level of paranoia necessary for a "spiritual leader" to need to make such a threat.
But does this mean mean that there is something "fundamentally wrong with the Golden Dawn egregore:?
No. It does not. At least not in my opinion.
It just means that a few G.D. leaders have let their egos get the best of them. Initiates deserve better than sectarian silliness.
By the way, the Alpha Omega is about to announce our next Spring Festival. Don't miss it.
AO Imperator David Griffin
I will get you the relevant bits as soon as I am able. I will try to embed some screen caps to keep you abreast of the argument. I find it a bit wrong, to tell the truth, when someone lambasts an individual/s who are unable to defend themselves (I am thinking of you here) though i do think some others were drawn in. Truth to tell, I actually like Nick, I like your organization too. This is part of what hurts so much when I see bickering and in fighting.
ReplyDeleteAs to the spring festival, I would love to attend, but finances preclude any hope of that. Things have been rather hard recently and this is OK as that is part of the vicissitudes that shape life.
Finally, thank you for your prompt response.
Nick Farrell: You saw nothing I just simply refused to play your game... prove that I was not in BOTA please or shut up
DeleteNick Farrell: So Jeff you are a member of David Griffin's AO?
Jeff Pallini: Keep dancing Nick Farrell we both know as well as BOTA New Zealand Chapter members that Chesterman did not trust you and never let you in.
Samuel Scarborough: Nick Farrell, isn't that group with the initials HOGDOOROAO for Heremtic Order of the Golden Dawn Outer Order of the Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha Omega?
Nick Farrell: Answer the question.
Samuel Scarborough: What I see Jeff Pallini is that you came on here attacking. You have been asked direct questions, and still you act like a troll. There is no rational discussion with the likes of you.
Nick Farrell: A rational conversation is when two sides provide information and do not attack another without proof.... so answer the questions and stop being a dickhead
Nick Farrell: It is just as well david does not come on this group and see you trying to start a GD war after he was so nice to me.... and you slagging off his lineage too sheesh
DeleteChristopher Bailey: I will not qualify myself with what grade I am or what lineage i belong to. The only thing I wanted to know was how Nick Farrell's project was different from what Pat tried to do. If magic is about the betterment of the self then I have only to hope to transcend the need to bicker and lambast. Please, understand that we have a beautiful tradition in front of us. And that tradition is going to be commented on. I think Regardie's publication of the material actually saved the G:. D:. in many ways.
The insulation it has provided has been very effectual in remaining 'secret'. The provision of so much noise to mask the 'signal' or current, if you will, has been a blessing in many ways. Decentralization, in this capacity, is NOT the enemy IMO. When the student is ready, the teacher appears and the 'signal' makes itself known. This is how it happened for me. Best of Luck to all of you and peace find it's way into your hearts, and good luck on this project, Nick.
Jeff Pallini: Christopher Bailey, if Regardie did not publish the rituals there would not be so manny wannabes like Nick Farrell out there starting groups without real training. Regarding Zalewski's publication of the 6=5 and 7=4 rituals they were pretty bad too but I don't believe there was an internet back then to upload them to.
Christopher Bailey the 'wannabes', as you put it, are the noise in which the signal is embedded. I am fine with this Jeff. There are many paths to the same peak, most choose to read rather than walk. Some, walk these paths and find their own ways. Who am I to begrudge them this journey?
Jeff Pallini: Unforunately the wannabes distract students from groups with real training. But perhaps that is a good thing as well.. At least the students will learn what not to do?
Christopher Bailey: Not necessarily, Jeff. In many capacities these 'distractions' act as filters. Those who come to the current are meant to be there. Those hung up on the distractions stay on the periphery, but, at the end of the day the thing that matters is that they have expressed the want or need to better themselves.
The 3d Rail wrote the following. I had to delete the original comment and redact it below as the post mentioned persons that must not appear on any AO blogs, etc. due to our contractual agreement:
Delete"The way it occured to me was that Nick seemed to think one of the commentators was a 'troll' or 'sock puppet' for your organization. Truth to tell, it seemed to me that this individual *was* being a bit evasive when it came to answering some questions. Though, he did intimate that this had something to do with a worry about breaking an oath.
Here is the copy paste of the relvant bits, this maybe difficult to follow. I apologize:
Me in reference to Farrel's new book,
Christopher Bailey: how does this differ from Pat's project?
Jeff Pallini: The 6=5 and 7=4 whare ra rituals have been published for years ( minus a couple paragraphs of the 6=5 oaths ). The originals can be found all over the back channel of the internet. Just another scam to make money on what could have been freely uploaded to a website.
Samuel Scarborough: Christopher Bailey - Pat's book that contains the Whare Ra 6=5 and 7=4 ceremonies were heavily edited, reworded, and even redacted by Christopher Hyatt. Whole elements of them are incorrect. According to the blurb that Nick has released on his book is that he is going to put out the complete and unedited versions of those ceremonies along with the associated 6=5 papers. Sorry Jeff Pallini the already published Whare Ra ceremonies of 6=5 and 7=4 are nowhere complete, and there are more than just a few lines missing from them. Nor are they readily available on the internet, back channels or otherwise. What I am seeing here is a lot of inappropriate hostility towards someone that you do not know. If you are going to make claims, then please substantiate them.
Jeff Pallini: Samuel Scarborough you are also unfairly selecting single points of my argument for example Nick never claimed the 0=0 from Whare Ra but we all saw him dance around the 0=0 neophyte BOTA claim. I am glad we both agree that Nick could not have gotten any GD training at SOL and Godard. He also only made it to the initial OTR outer court degrees and I assume you agree they are not GD either. So it remains that Nick' s only GD training is from the XXX and by his own admission he never made it to tham. That is fine but there is no reason to puff yourself up just to try and sell books. The dribble he writes as commentaries in mathers last secret speaks clearly regarding his lack of understanding."
I apologise that I have to keep deleting Christopher's comments, redacting them, and reposting them due to contractual obligations. This puts this whole mess a bit out of order. Hopefully our readers can still piece it together.
DeleteChristopher Baily wrote:
"Nick Farrell: Well you did have a go at David Griffin but poor Jeff is not David Griffin is he? I mean David would be man enough to face people.
Nick Farrell: David would also never be dumb enough to get into such a trollish argument
Jeff Pallini: Samuel Scarborough you being an initiate of the XXXX does not make you a GD initiate no matter if they trademark the name or not. Regardie had no training as solistes or any other office. He could not have initiated anyone - period.
Nick Farrell: He [meaning you, David] is very sensitive about the fact he has to call himself by so many initials.
Jeff Pallini: Regardie was an editor and discraced the entire tradition by publishing the rituals.
Nick Farrell: ahhhh so you are David Griffin's order... and yet you did not follow your leaders orders to burn my book you read the rituals.., and broke your oath to David.
Samuel Scarborough: what I found more disgraceful to the GD tradition was publishing video of a really sloppy performance of a GD ceremony that really showed lack of training.
Jeff Pallini: Because of regardie we have clowns running around calling themselves the GD self taught out of books.
Nick Farrell: yeah or sleeping with people and getting grades without having to sit exams
Nick Farrell: But your chief got his grades from Regardie's student Jeff...
Nick Farrell: so if you complain about regardie you are complaining about your chiefs qualifications. AO is dependant on Regardie grades from 0=0 to 6=5 and the 7=4 from Burke via Robert Word.
Nick Farrell: Well it is amusing that Jeff is slagging off me for having a XXX connection when his own chief gained most of his qualifications from that same order. I would be really cross if I were David"
i am beginning to wonder if any of these cross posts will not need to be redacted for contractual reasons. Here is the next bit from Christopher, cleaned up of mentioning unmentionable people:
Delete"Samuel Scarborough: Jeff can you name a group that provides "real training" as you put it?
Jeff Pallini: BOTA, SOL, and SIL to name a few.
Nick Farrell: Not your own order? One of which you say did not give me proper magical training... you see you are getting hung up by your own lies now
Jeff Pallini: Nick Farrell I was referring specifically to your Golden Dawm training - I even stated you learned path workings in the SOL. But you were never a 0=0 neophyte of BOTA where the GD rituals are taught. Your only GD training ( or rather lack thereof ) is from the XXXXs.
Nick Farrell: And Whare Ra
Jeff Pallini : You were never initiated into Whare Ra that is obvios by your profound lack of understanding of the basic rituals. Regardless I am getting tired of continually repeating myself while a bunch of clowns take turns asking the same thing over and over again. Good luck with your MOAA and publications!
Jeff Pallini: You guys are right and I am wrong for getting angry. I am sorry though Nick Farrell left without answering any questions and continues to deny a number of crrtain facts. Pop over and read his latest blog where he is using the very same troll tactics he accuses others of. For example, on his latest blog he continues to swear that he never said the Banner of the West should not be in the East in the 1=10 but go ahead and read page 111 of Mathers last secret REVISED and see for yourself ( he really is delusional in a scary way ). His whole objective is to tear down Mathers to make himself look smarter but he doesn't know even the basics about the GD. I am a lowly 2=9 struggling with anger when I see fraud and lies. I promise to try and do better but it doesn't help to have 3 or 4 people gang up on me here yesterday. Where is all the love? One clarification, I do believe the SOL is a great occult correspondence school where you can learn solid material but their new ritual work does NOT come from Butler. Butler had another Esoteric School for ritual work and only passed on the correspondence lessons to the SOL so they recuited Godard to form new ritual groups and this has absolutely nothing to do with the GD. It is o.k, to be a student and still learning but it is a dangerous to yourself and others to not know what you are doing. Please learn from someone that does!
Christopher Bailey: Jeff, thank you for your apology. Your side is much better served without the vitriol, as is Nick's. I think that if this thread had evolved devoid of these things, it would have been very enlightening to the rest of us. It's about progress, not perfection, and I wish each and every ONE of you luck in your progress."
OK. Here is my reply.
DeleteSigh.
The above is a perfect example of what happens when we let our egos derail a discussion. Nick, Sam, and their allies have for years accused anyone who disagrees with them in the least of being me, sock puppets, trolls, or Alpha Omega agents.
This is just a rhetorical strategy to avoid answering uncomfortable questions.
Another strategy is making so much noise criticising me or the Alpha Omega with some pretty serious misrepresentations, while at the same time barring any right of refutation from either the AO or me.
How sad. Behind all of the heated passion, all I really see here are two questions that seem fair enough and easy enough to answer:
1. What is the difference between Nick's new publication and Pat Zalewksi's work. I still can't fish out a straight answer to this question out of the above passionate quotes, except that Nick is publishing unedited versions of rituals previously published by Zalewksi.
2. What is really Nick's Golden Dawn background? This seems to be the question that really caused passions to run high. A sensitive nerve seems to have been touched. From what I have read elsewhere, Nick was never initiated in Whare Ra as he now claims, but instead was initiated in the OTR, a completely separate order with a couple of crochety old geezers who used to belong to Whare Ra hanging out there "remembering the good old days."
What I don't get is why Nick doesn't just say:
"No, I was never initiated in Whare Ra but was initiated in OTR where a couple of ex Whare Ra members were still hanging around."
or
"Sure what I am publishing is similar to what Pt has previously published. I think there are differences though that make this book worth publishing."
In any case, I recommend our readers to buy Nick's new book, if for no other reason than we all know how hard it is today to make ends meet living in Italy. Nick deserves to make a living as much as all of us.
Imagine a world where we can all engage in civil discussion and stick to discussing factual matters and our differences in position about them.
It would be nice to see more legitimate debate and less name calling.
I am sure Nick is a very nice person and we might even like one another should we ever get the chance to actually meet. Sure, we have entirely different approaches to the Golden Dawn, but so what? It is the diversity of the GD community that is its greatest strength.
I just want to say that I am sorry that this is happening. It is... disheartening. There is room for substantive debate, as you have said, that deals with facts. Ideally I would love to see all of the community come together and deal with this by putting principles before personalities. Some folks do this in earnest and this is as it should be. Others hang on to past hurts or perceived slights and only aim to punish, denigrate, and hurt. I would remind your readers, as I am sure they know, that 'healing people heal, hurt people hurt.' If we can begin from a place of compassion for our fellows I think we might be better off.
DeleteWith that said, thank you David, for your reply and you and your groups tireless work on this Great Work, our precious Magnum Opus. It is healing that is needed, and I think that, where there is love... it will find away.
As to the questions at play here, I think that you answered the REAL question at the end of your statement:
"It is the diversity of the GD community that is its greatest strength."
Beautiful,
Christopher
"The voice of my higher soul said unto me, Let me enter the Path of Darkness, peradventure thus shall I obtain the Light"
I would like to underline a point already made by Imperator Griffin, namely, that the reactions of NF and others do not stay with topic but attack the person saying them. Classically this is called an "Ad Hominem" argument, whereby rather than answering the argument or objection one attacks the person offering the argument or objection. The problem with Ad Hominem arguments is that they never respond to the objection or argument made. Furthermore, the value of an argument or objection never hinges on the person making it. Consequently Ad Hominem arguments are distractions rather than a part of serious, rational discourse.
DeleteI wonder if Imperator Griffin would at some point put up a post about the nature of an egregore? It appears to me that there is some confusion on the matter, some of it potentially serious. Just a thought...
ReplyDeleteGood idea. Sounds like an interesting discussion topic.
DeleteThere is one thing that is still unclear to me. Was Nick Farrell actually attacked by anonymous trolls over on Facebook?
ReplyDeleteFrom what I read above, NF appears to have merely walked into an impartial, objective forum which allowed people to ask real questions. It also looks like the moderators were not willing to support Farrell and Scarborough in what appears to be an attempt to divert attention from the questions rather than answer them by attacking those posing the questions.
Maybe now we can finally get down to discussing real positions on very real aspects of the Golden Dawn. Over the past years, I have gone to great length to expound on the positions that the Alpha Omega holds. The post-modernists have still never clearly stated what their positions actually are. Thus the public remains stuck an a nebulous fog about the very real differences between one Golden Dawn order and the other.
What is, for example, the position of Sam Scaroborough's order on segregation? Do they allow Thelemites, as well as Pagans, Jews, Muslims, and Christians in their Second Order? This is just one example of many things the public has s right to know.
From what I gather, Nick Farrell's position on the Golden Dawn is that he is not a part of it, yet likes to make money writing books attacking it, its founders, and profaning its documents.
It would be really helpful, for example, if Mr. Farrell would address these apparent inconsistencies and quit evading legitimate questions by using "ad hominem" personal attacks against those who ask inconvenient, albeit legitimate questions.
Again, since my membership has been denied in the Facebook group in question, I have no first hand way of knowing what actually happenned. My remarks here are based purely on the limited data kindly provided by Mr. Baily above.
Delete"NF appears to have merely walked into an impartial, objective forum which allowed people to ask real questions."
DeleteThis is exactly what happened. Though Mr. Pallini may have been a bit rough to start. I think this would have shook itself out as we tried to calm him down. This is what happened in fact, as you all can see by Mr. Pallini's apology.
Christopher Bailey
Also on that note, I just submitted my application and dues payment to your order, David, as a show of solidarity.
ReplyDeleteMuch Love to you and all your readers,
Christopher Bailey
A propos to communications with HOGD/AO on this site, could you tell me if the "contact us" link Is working? I sent a couple of questions about training two or three weeks ago and didn't get anything back acknowledging receipt of my message. Not that anything was time sensitive, but I just wanted to be sure the message was was received.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your feedback. We have been having problems with our autoresponders. I will look into it. Meanwhile, please write directly to admin@golden-dawn.com.
DeleteIt turns out that the smtp mail from golden-dawn.com has been experiencing serious issues over the past month. Our programming team in India is already on it, and I hope that everything is working perfectly again by the end of the week.
DeleteGolden-Dawn.Com is an extremely complex website, with on-line teaching faciliteies, curriculum, and members sub-sites in six languages.
Due to the complexity of the programming, we end up troubleshooting the site and fixing things rather frequently.
I apologize for any inconvenience.
Thank-you! In the meantime I have emailed to the address you gave above.
Delete@Dr. Jeeves,
DeleteI have looked, but not found your mail!
Turns out our mailserver problems are not accidental. We are under DDOS attack again. They did not manage to take our website down, but they crippled our mailserver. Our programmers are taking countermeasures.
ReplyDeleteOk. I'll wait til all things are go. I take it from your comment that this has happened before. Someone certainly wants to make the AOs life difficult...
ReplyDeleteWhat is most concerning is that I have not even received your email. Please try admin@golden-dawn.eu instead.
DeleteThen again, I am looking for an email from Dr. Jeeves. Should I look under something else?
DeleteI've added Dr. Jeeves to the subject line and re-sent...
ReplyDeleteGuys, I don't belong to GD tradition. I even don't do Magick.
ReplyDeleteIs my vision on magic outside of GD tradition less valid? I have two followers, my wife and our dog. No idea who will join me next.
Mr.Farrel?