Sunday, May 19, 2013

S.R.I.A. or ALPHA OMEGA: "Is the Golden Dawn 'Christian' or 'Nonsectarian'?"


by Golden Dawn Imperator
David Griffin

Peregrin Wildoak (a member of S.R.I.A, a recent Trinitarian Christian convert, and a highly vocal Mystical Golden Dawn advocate), just published an interesting article about "Christian" symbolism in the Golden Dawn.

You can read Peregrin's complete article HERE. I am concerned about this article because it reinforces the mistaken belief held by many Pagans that the Golden Dawn is "too Christian" to be a valid magical school for Pagans.

Peregrin Wildoak writes:
"Each GD initiate has to engage with and embody the mysteries behind a whole raft of Christian symbols, from the neophyte Red Cross (an ‘Image of Him Who was unfolded in the Light’) to the Cross of Suffering in the Vault ... This engagement means the initiate, and collectively the tradition, is working the mysteries through a Christian based lens more than any other lens. This is why I can describe the RR et AC as a ‘Christian’ tradition."
Peregrin Wildoak

That Peregrin speaks of "mysteries" is quite revealing in itself, as the word itself derives not from Christianity, but from "Mystes," the Greek word used to describe initiates of the ancient Egyptian Isinian tradition. This is described clearly, for example, in the latter part of Apuleus "The Golden Ass."

Peregrin has repeatedly claimed in the past that Professor Ronald Hutton has proven that there are no remnants of ancient Paganism that have survived into the present. In reality, however, Professor Hutton's own research has revealed the survival of numerous remnants of ancient Paganism during the decade since he wrote "Triumph of the Moon."

In his above argument, Peregrin attempts to misportray symbols as purely Christian by ignoring that Christianity itself is but a reformulation of earlier mysteries and traditions. In fact, there is not a single Christian symbol that is uniquely Christian. None exist at all. Each and every "Christian" symbol was taken from other preexisting traditions, reformulated, and used by Christianity. These earlier traditions include Judaism, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and certain ideas from the ancient orient. In other words:

"There is no such thing as purely 'Christian' symbols."

I accept that Christianity reformulated these things for their own use, but there is nothing that is, in fact, original. Christianity created itself on ancient foundations. It is like a man that is seated on the shoulders of true giants - the ancient traditions.

With this, I am not saying that Christianity is not a valid religion nor a good path. On the contrary, is obviously is for certain people. I am saying that, however, as Christianity readily admits, Christianity is a Mystical spiritual path rather than a Magical one.

Contrary to popular misunderstanding, Mysticism and Magic are two quite distinct spiritual paths. I have written extensively already clarifying the differences between Mysticism and Magick (for example here and here). For clarity in the present discussion, however, I repeat the most relevant aspects here, as follows:
"The primary difference between Magick and Mysticism lies codified in the actual methods of practice, together with the Mystical or Magical inclinations of the practitioner. 
The Mystical path refers to the capacity and will of the practitioner to place oneself in a passive position in relationship to eternal Being and the forces of nature, which the Practitioner begins to invoke and pray to, so they may manifest and enlighten one, thus spiritually uplifting and exalting the practitioner.  
The Magical practitioner, on the other hand, does not place him or herself in a passive state towards natural and Divine forces, but rather in an active state. Recognizing the Divine Spark inside oneself, the practitioner actively collaborates with Eternal Being rather than waiting for its manifestations. 
In Mysticism, the practitioner expects Divinity to manifest itself, and to ascend the staircase that leads from below to on high aided by the Divine hand that takes us and leads us ever upwards. 
Magic does not expect this, instead conquering the Inner Planes through one's own effort rather than through Divine aid. Thus, whereas the Mystical approach is one of submission, the Magician instead is a conquerer. 
A perfect example of the Magical path may be found in the Mithraic Ritual deposited in Paris, which shows one such practice of divine Ascension of the Magical initiate. While rising towards Divinity to be received like a prodigal Son or Daughter, the practitioner greets the Gods as equals that gradually appear, not fearing them or subjugating oneself before them, but admonishing them and blandishing them with Magical words that open the gates of heaven. 
Whereas Magick is based on knowledge, Mysticism is based on on ignorance in the literal sense of "ignoring" or "unknowing." In fact, one of the most important mystical texts in all of Christianity, "The Cloud of Unknowing," speaks of making oneself obscure, humble and ignorant before the unmanifest - to remain there, in silence, gradually emptying oneself, while waiting for something or someone (God) to come and fill the void thus created. 
Thus two completely different modalities become evident. Whereas the Mystic reflects the Divine light that is poured out upon him, the Magician generates this light, becoming an emitter himself."  

Proof that Christianity is a Mystical spiritual path and not a Magical one lies, for example, in the prohibition of Magic in the Bible. One poignant example of this is the struggle between St. Peter and the Magician, Simon Magus.

Leviticus and Deuteronomy prohibit certain kinds of Magic, specifically divination, seeking omens, mediums who commune with the dead, and spell-casters. For example, Deuteronomy 18:11-12 condemns anyone who:
"...casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you."
... and Exodus 22:18 states:
"Do not allow a sorceress to live".
Galatians includes sorcery in a list of "works of the flesh". This ban is repeated in the Didache, written during the mid to late first century.
"The practice of Witchcraft and Magic were regarded as Sins by Christians that needed to be repented of, confessed, and forsaken."
Martin Luther shared some of the views about witchcraft that were common in his time. In his Small Catechism Luther taught that Magic was a sin against the second commandment.

I believe that anyone who approaches any of the “Christian” demoninations and asks if that particular group would allow for ANY form of Magic to be performed as part of an approach to Jesus as God, they would be denied.

If no Christian denomination (including the Anglican church Peregrin was confirmed into in 2011) will permit Magic to be practiced within the canon of their teachings, I cannot conceive of how it can be considered a Christian practice. To me, this seems obvious. It would be like asking an Orthodox Jew to allow worship of Jesus within the Temple walls – simply inconceivable.

In fact, the "Rituale Romanum De Sacramento Paenitantiae" specifically lists Magic and Astrology as mortal sins, and illucidates the following for grounds for excommunication from the Church:
"Who adheres to Magical beliefs such as the Magic of Cartomancy, Astrology, and all esoteric practices or who converts to other faiths such as Masonry or Rosicrucianism."
It is important to note that Martin Luther did not turn away from the above, but instead additionally combatted the magical understanding of the way God works with human creatures as promoted among spiritualists of his time.

Evangelical Christian groups, likewise condemn Magic, whereas other Christian groups even go so far as to condemn ANY form of Magic as Satanic. Such groups obviously would, of course, regard Masonic Rosicrucians as Satanists as well, even though they themselves claim to be Trinitarian Christians.

All of these are fundamental internal inconsistencies in the argument presented by Freemasonic Rosicrucians - "that the Rosicrucian tradition is exclusively Trinitatian Christian" - and they have so far completely failed to explain, resolve, or even properly address any of these issues. The same holds even more true for the equally flawed argument that the Golden Dawn is essentially a Christian tradition, as presented, for example, in the above referenced article by S.R.I.A. member, Peregrin Wildoak.

One of the earliest Golden Dawn Adepts, Arthur Edward Waite, also a prominent member of S.R.I.A., recognized these fatal inconsistencies and attempted to overcome them by eliminating all Golden Dawn Magic, and transforming the Golden Dawn into a purely Mystical order which he founded, called the Fraternity of the Rosy Cross. The F.R.C. has now been revived within the Secret College of the S.R.I.A., and shares S.R.I.A.'s "Christians only" view of the Rosicrucian tradition.

Arthur Edward Waite

Nonetheless, none of the above-listed fatal inconsistencies in their philosophical and spiritual positions, have ever been properly addressed by either the S.R.I.A., the F.R.C., and certainly not by any of the Golden Dawn orders the S.R.I.A. today directs and controls.

Has the time not come for the Christian Mystic faction in our Golden Dawn community to once and for all honestly address the fundamental inconsistencies in their philosophical positions on Rosicrucianism, Magic, and the Golden Dawn?

Why is it that Mystical and Trinitarian Christian oriented Golden Dawn orders do not simply admit what they are and abandon Magic and the Golden Dawn as did A.E. Waite with his Fraternity of the Rosy Cross? Such orders would be far more honest to do this. Why do they not? Do they not stubbornly cling to Magic and the Golden Dawn merely as a question of marketing, since Magic attracts so many people?

Let me make this clear. I am not against Mystical orders nor am I against Christianity. I am merely against the dishonesty of Mystical orders pretending to be Magical Golden Dawn orders in order to attract students looking for Magic rather than Christian Mysticism.

One sees the diference between Magical rituals and Mystical Rites clearly already in ancient Egypt, where no Goddess or God is prayed to. Prayer to a Goddess or God is only seen in later dynasties where the influence of Mysticism had gained a foothold in Egypt, to the decadence of earlier, purely magical traditions.

When students approach the Golden Dawn looking for Magical training, is it ethical that they should be lured by mystically oriented orders into a training in Mysticism rather than the training in Magic they were actually seeking?

In the Alpha Omega, we do NOT make Mystics ...
We make MAGICIANS!

Peregrin continues:
"People’s dislike or lack of fit with Christian symbolism often prompts them to want to modify and change the symbols and rituals (which are a way of embodying the mystery of the symbols). However, I think it very unwise to change any symbol until we know and are intimate with the mystery it represents."
I fully agree. This is why we in the Alpha Omega have not at all changed any of the symbols of the Golden Dawn beyond the modifications made by S.L. MacGregor Mathers himself in the early Alpha Omega. The A.O. preserves our Golden Dawn/R.R. et A.C. College perfectly intact as it was passed down to us by Mathers, albeit with our Rituals protected from recent profanation and our Magic supplemented with additional, traditional Golden Dawn Magick given to our Order by our Secret Chiefs.
Peregrin writes:
"In response to some recent silly and strange claims on the net regarding the history of the Golden Dawn"
Since Peregrin and other S.R.I.A. members repeat like a broken record the thoroughly debunked claim that "no evidence" exists of any traditional Golden Dawn Magick other than that published by Regardie, we recently invited our critics (including Peregrin) to come and examine the actual supplemental G.D. Magick and materials from the Secret Chiefs for themselves.

Here is what G.D. members from across the community had to say, who actually came and examined the evidence:

"The supplemental Magick and other materials for the Neophyte grade fit like hand in glove. Some of it is advanced, but when you see it together with the rest of the material it is simple and obvious. You can see that the original material is for learning purposes and the supplemental material is for practical application of the old material. It seems like a natural extension."  
- Frater NTI, Gothenburg, Sweden 
"To anyone who doubts the existence of the physical Secret Chiefs or the authenticity of their Golden Dawn teachings, if you would have attended the Festival, you would have seen it for yourself. I along with many others who did attend, ARE the proof of its power and authenticity."
- Frater O.B., Alvin, TX  
For Pagans who have a problem with symbolism in the Golden Dawn that superficially appears "Christian," the Secret Chiefs have released an entirely separate, Pagan and purely Magical, Egyptian College of Isis within the Alpha Omega. 

Let us be clear. The A.O.'s Egyptian College of Isis is not at all a reinterpretation of Golden Dawn symbolism. This is an entirely separate, completely Pagan based Rosicrucian College with its own distinct and unique Rites, Magic, etc.

Here is what one advanced Golden Dawn Magician had to say about the Magick of the Alpha Omega's Egyptian College of Isis:


"No one is grafting anything onto the Golden Dawn. The A.O.'s Egyptian College of Isis is NOT Golden Dawn. It is purely Egyptian Magick in a separate College of the A.O. and does not pretend to be anything else. The A.O. is obviously much more than merely Golden Dawn. 
I have been practicing Golden Dawn Magick for 11 years. I was quite astonished today when I learned the most basic magical practice of the Alpha Omega's new Egyptian College of Isis. The G.D.'s Rite of the Qabalistic Cross is very powerful, but the Egyptian basic ritual is even better. I was very surprised that one notices changes from the power of this practice immediately." 
- VH Frater S.E.M., Mexico City, Mexico
Peregrin continues:
"The power and transformation inherent in the RR et AC is Rosicrucian. Now there are any number of hermetic, alchemical and occult influences within the [Rosicrucian] manifestos, but the overarching theme, current and religiosity is undeniably Christian."
Where is the proof of the above statement? 

To begin with those who insist on superficially interpreting the symbol of the cross in merely Christian terms, clearly remain ignorant of academic research in this arena. Rene Guenon clearly demonstrated that the symbol of the cross is not uniquely Christian at all, but predates Christianity and was merely adapted by the relatively modern religion.

Rene Guenon's "The Symbolism of the Cross" is a major doctrinal study of the central symbol of Christianity from the standpoint of the universal metaphysical tradition, the 'perennial philosophy' as it is called in the West. As Guénon points out, the cross is one of the most universal of all symbols and is far from belonging to Christianity alone.

We have the cross that is a pre-Crhistian symbol. We have roses that are pre-Christian symbols for Venus. So with these clearly Pagan constituent elements, how can one seriously claim that the Rose-Cross is a purely Christian symbol, when, in fact, it goes far beyond Christianity? Aven Apuleus, who was an important Pagan Magician, caused his protagonist to return to human form by eating roses!

When the cross, the Rose, the Chalice, the Patan, the host, the Madonna with child, and not even the dying and resurrecting savior are not originally Christian symbols, but rather Christian reformulations of ancient symbols used for Centuries by Pagan traditions, how then, pray tell, is the Rosicrucian tradition purely Christian by any strech of the imagination?

There is an additional historical aspect to this question as well. Rosicrucian researcher Susanne Akermann has shown that the earliest copy of the Fama Fraternitatis is not written in German, but in Latin, which she discovered in Italy. Rosicrucian research additionally indicates that what was later published as the "Fama Fraternitatis" by the Tubingen circle surrounding Johan Valentine Andrae was developed from the writings of Tomas Campanella, smuggled by Tobias Hess from Italy where Canpanella was imprisoned by the Vatican.

It is further noteworthy that many of the fundamental ideas in the Fama Fraternitatis are purely PAGAN rather than Christian, many of which are found again in the works of Giordano Bruno, whose Pagan ideas were too much for the church, which therefore burned Bruno at the stake for heresy.

As as a further example, let us take the central story line of the Fama Fraternitatis, the recounting of the initiatic journey of Christian Rosenkreutz. It was Pagan tradition, as is testified to by all of the ancient Pagan philosophers and Magicians, from Pythagoras onwards, to take an initiatic journey in the cradle of the Pagan mysteries.

Christian Rosenkreutz did nothing other than to take a typically Pagan journey, and to code switch it into Christian terms appropriate to the times to preserve the PAGAN mysteries underlying the Fama Fraternitatis.

Peregrin writes making reference to a fundamental tenet of the S.R.I.A. about the nature of the Rosicrucian tradition, as follows:
Of Rosicrucianism, noted S.R.I.A. occult and Masonic historian R.A. Gilbert has the view that: 
"…once one moves away from the Trinitarian Christian approach to this ascent up the Tree of Life, it ceases to be Rosicrucian." (http://www.rosecircle.org/cms/node/36).
S.R.I.A. Grand Archivist
R.A. Gilbert 

Imagine trying to explain Pagan mysteries or to teach Pagan Magic to a closed minded individual in Victorian England. Indeed, the only means of accomplishing such a feat was to disguise the Pagan Magic and teachings with the only symbols that such an individual would understand and be receptive to. 

Indeed, the actual entire original purpose and function of the Golden Dawn was to present Pagan Magic to Victorian England in a form that could get past their Christian blinders. Thus, of necessity, the Golden Dawn is rife with symbolism which, when examined only superficially, appears to be Christian. This, however, does not mean that when you look deeper, you do not find Pagan Magic and mysteries lurking behind.

I am astonished that Peregrin, R.A. Gilbert, and others like them do not appear to as yet even have even recognized the inherent contradiction between their arguments that the Rosicrucian tradition is primarily a Trinitarian Christian one, while they nonetheless profess to be Golden Dawn Magicians, when Magic in all its forms has been forbidden by Christianity since its beginning.

Let me repeat this yet once again. This does not mean that I am against Christianity or even against Mystical orders and schools. On the contrary, there are clearly people who are best suited for Mystical spiritual training.

Trinitarian Christians, for example, will likely find themselves most at home in a purely Christian Mystical order like A.E. Waite's Fraternity of the Rosy Cross or in orders with a Trinitarian Christian requirement like the S.R.I.A. 

Aspiring, MAGICIANS, however, will likely find themselves most at home in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha Omega.

Likewise, aspiring Pagan Magicians seeking purely Pagan magical training will likely find themselves most at home in the Alpha Omega's Egyptian College of Isis.

The A.O.'s Egyptian College of Isis and its Pagan Magic derive not from some fanciful "Inner Planes Contacts," nor is our Egyptian College any sort of academic reconstruction either.

Sir Edward Bullwer-Lytton

Instead this PAGAN Rosicrucian College derives directly from the same Continental European Rosicrucian initiatic source that initiated both Kenneth McKenzie and Sir Edward Bulwer-Lytton, both of whom are universally recognized, even by the S.R.I.A., as having been initiated into a legitimate Rosicrucian lineage.

Kenneth H.R. MacKenzie

Although it is obviously not in S.R.I.A.'s interest to admit this in public, S.R.I.A. is clearly aware of the legitimacy of this Rosicrucan initiatic source, since it is established historical fact that on several occasions S.R.I.A. attempted to falsely portray both Lord Bulwer-Lytton and Kenneth McKenzie as founders of S.R.I.A., attempting to give S.R.I.A. the appearance of Rosicrucian legitimacy. (This is documented in my previous article entitled "Did W.W. Wescott try to steal the Golden Dawn's Rosicrucian Lineage for the S.R.I.A.?" that you can read HERE).

So, in the end, is the Golden Dawn "Christian" or "Nonsectarian"?

The answer to this question depends a great deal on who you ask. If you ask the S.R.I.A., Waite's Fraternity of the Rosy Cross, or a Christian Golden Dawn advocate like Peregrin Wildoak, you will likely hear the opinion that the entire Rosicrucian tradition is rooted in Christian symbolism and should be reserved exclusively for Trinitarian Christians.

In the Alpha Omega, on the other hand, we are ecumenical and non-sectarian - and therefore open to aspirants of ALL religions faiths. We do recognize, however, that some people will feel a deeper resonance with certain symbol systems than with others.

This is why the A.O. offers more than one Rosicrucian College and Magical training path to choose from. Christians will likely feel more at home in the Alpha Omega's traditional Golden Dawn College, whereas Pagans will likely find a deeper resonance with our Egyptian Pagan College.

In the Alpha Omega, we believe in helping aspirants of ALL faiths to achieve their spiritual goals. We therefore give people a wider range of choices than they will find in other Golden Dawn orders.

Again, I am not saying the Alpha Omega is better than other Golden Dawn orders, although we DO things differently. For example, we offer people a wider range of choices for their spiritual training.

Click HERE to explore our Outer Order, undergraduate level Magical training program, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn!

43 comments:

  1. The Christian-Mystical GD has another hallmark, which is to treat Hermeticism as a RELIGION rather than as Science. Science and Magic follow similar trajectories; Mysticism and Religion follow similar trajectories.

    The attempt to force Magic into a Religious-Mystic mindset is never going to work out. It is most clearly nonsensical in a Christian Mysticism guise, given the antipathy that Christianity has always shown towards Magic, but it also fails under ANY form of excess religiosity, even ultimately among Pagans where there are at least Magic friendly currents and Gods and Goddesses OF Magic.

    That SRIA and Waite's progeny seek to stake claims to the Magic of GD, only really makes sense in terms of PR. This is what sells books and draws in members.

    They should leave Magic to the Magicians. There is clearly plenty of work for good Mystics in the world!

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    1. Good point, Aletheia. Magic is a Science, not a Religion.

      Delete
    2. or maybe as crowley had said "the aim of religion the method of science"?

      Delete
  2. Wait a minute.

    By teaching their flocks MAGICK and convincing them to become ROSICRUCIANS, are Christian leaders like S.R.I.A. and Peregrin not in reality converting them to SATANISM and leading them into DAMNATION and HELL FIRE?

    Is this not, after all, what the very Christian symbol system they argue rules the Golden Dawn JUDGES THEM as doing?

    Let me get this straight.

    Christian symbols say ROSICRUSIANISM and MAGICK are MORTAL SINS, and that Rosicrucians should be excommunicated from the Church.

    And other Christian symbols even judge ALL MAGICIANS as SATANISTS.

    Yet Peregrin says this SAME Christian symbol system is the PRIMARY symbol system of Golden Dawn, even though the Golden Dawn is a MAGICAL order!

    Huh? The same Christian symbol system that condemns MAGIC as a MORTAL SIN?

    Then SRIA argues only Trinitarian Christians can be true Rosicrucians. Wait a minute.

    You mean the same Rosicrucians that other Christian's symbols judge as damnable SATANISTS that should be EXCOMMUNICATED?

    This is all very confusing for me.

    On days like these I'm glad I'm Pagan.

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    1. It is a bit confusing, Nemesis, is it not. I am also very curious to hear how they justify teaching "forbidden" Magick!

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  3. Confuses the hell out of me. This sort of self-serving chaos of symbols is what made OTO the order of choice for generations of would-be Magicians, even if they weren't full-on Thelemites - they at least found a Pagan friendly atmosphere.

    Now that HOGD/AO is setting the record straight and clarifying the confusion caused, the time has come for these organisations to drop the dishonesty and embrace their core values as Mystics.

    Clearly all Christians are not the same. Unfortunately those who espouse hatred and vilify others for being Pagan, or Gay, or in some other way not fitting that particular Christian Sect's biblical exegesis of a "Universal Morality" are very loud and visible, e.g. in the Catholic Church, let alone among raving Fundies.

    It is very important for those in the community who are Christians to be clear about how their beliefs function in the wider category of Hermeticism, and in support of the Perennial Tradition.

    HOGD/AO generates no confusion about this when working outside the Egyptian Stream, with the symbols as they were veiled in Christian terms.

    Attempts to hi-jack these currents of Spiritual Science into a religious framework are a HUGE red flag - and those who are attempting to distort these ancient paths in order to generate $$$ for their religious quest are digging themselves a pit they may find it hard to extricate themselves from.

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    1. Spiritual Science indeed. Magic is scientific technology for spiritual development. It has nothing at all to do with religion. Religion is something completely different.

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  4. I have been forced to edit and repost the following post by "Jimmie Steele" as it mentioned a person's name who our legal agreements do not permit to appear on this blog.

    Jimmie Steele wrote:

    Wonderful article Mr . Griffin thank u for this post it is ALWAYS REFRESHING to hear somebody that shares the same viewpoints/beliefs . I stumbled across this article while looking for info on something else HOGD related. It happens a lot lol its how I came across your you tube channel also . Neway I will try to b brief as possible but its difficult to do since this is VERY IMPORTANT TO ME . I hope u read these there was no contact email on your profile or I wouldve done that. I'm a aspiring magician and EVERYTHING keeps directing me to the HOGD RR et AO . I was raised evangelical pentecostal christian but I found at age 16 it wasnt for me had a spiritual awakening of sorts readin a book. And ever since I've been searchin then running away from my truth . I'm done running tho and have been doin a lot of work taking classes on energy , reiki, tarot, majik, russian numerology, angel work , ect and learning a lot but still everything keeps goin right back to HOGD . I really believe it is the system that I can grow the most with and discover what I need to do in this life to perform the great work. And I'm VERY VERY excited that u now have an Egyptian/Kehmetic branch in the order too. I feel ties to Egypt always have even before as a child (I'm now 29 will b 30 on 17/07). The outer orders Egyptian symbolism is another thing that has drawn me to your majick order. I am reading and practicing a lot wit books including [edited out] " self initiation into the golden dawn tradition" following all guidelines and time frames I wanna do this the right way. But I Really feel I can obviously learn even more if I had support and instruction from brothers and sisters of a chapter . I've looked into joining lots of organisations theres so many golden dawn offshoots but I am only interested in the original HOGD I've read too much negative stuff bout other sects that I won't mention here. Problem is my area I live in Baltimore , Maryland USA and there's nothing in this area which shocks me honestly I figured there would at least be a Washington D.C. temple but only thing a round here is a very expensive OTO chapter and lots of lil Wicca groups . Pretty much everybody in my lil spiritual family is wiccan and has no desire to take the extra step beyond earthy majick which is fine I love wiccans/witches but I want to learn a lot more than it too. I did manage to reach what I believe is a authentic HOGD temple in Florida but they said they would love to help me on my journey but they don't offer any correspondance courses. I'm sorry for the long comment I just felt sun background was necessary I hope you or somebody gets this comment . If you or anyone had any advice for me on what I can do to help this situation that doesn't involve me moving please let me kno . I AM WILLING TO DRIVE OR FLY travel to wherever I need to so I can receive true initiations this means a lot to me and my one spiritual teacher and friend told me that if this is what resonates with me I need tp go for it. Thanks for listening here's an email if you or any body can help thank you . Peace light and love

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    1. Dear Jimmie,

      You sound like a perfect fit with the Alpha Omega. You can study with us and travel to one of our temples or festivals for initiation. You can apply for our order at:

      http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/membership.aspx

      Delete
  5. PS: I am glad to see that Pagans are beginning to see that the Golden Dawn is not "too Christian" for them!

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  6. Being one of the honored few that now posses the New Egyptian Section and its Rituals and Rites, I just have to reiterate just how powerful these rituals are, and just how well they fit into the A.O.'s system as a counterpart to the Qabbalistic College. As David Griffin has said, nothing is being replaced or altered in any way in our Order, NOTHING. We still use and will continue to use the traditional A.O. Golden Dawn System, just as we have been since its inception over 100 years ago. The Egyptian Section and the other new Magick (which I can't go into detail about) recently released to a privileged few at the 2013 International Festival of G.D. Magicians, is an obvious precursor to some of the core Golden Dawn Rituals and Rites. It becomes clear when practicing these rituals that they are the Pagan predecessors of the basic Qabbalistic Rituals & Rites of the Golden Dawn. As my brother from Sweden has said, "It fits like hand in glove". I personally practice both the traditional Golden Dawn curriculum as well as the new Egyptian Section and supplemental Magick, and have no intention of abandoning the traditional, Qabbalistic system that is so brilliantly put together, and that I KNOW works. Having said this, I want to point out that I completely agree with David Griffin about the Pagan Magick that lies behind the seemingly Judeo/Christian symbolism. As he said, in that time in history, it was necessary for them to use Judeo/Christian symbology to safely pass down the ancient initiatic knowledge hidden within it to their students. Not doing so would've meant their persecution and even death in many cases. The two systems, though different, are at the same time VERY similar, and work wonderfully together. They both achieve the same results, the Egyptian Section or College just uses a different and more Pagan symbol system, along with a more ancient set of rituals and Divine Names. This is appealing to Pagans and will hopefully inspire the aspiring Pagan magicians out there that have reservations about the Golden Dawn system due to it's seemingly "Christian" symbology to join the A.O. and be able to comfortably practice Golden Dawn Magick. But as David Griffin has said, the Magick behind the symbology is already Pagan, so don't let it stop you from finding your Path! When the time comes that this new Magick is permanently added to the curriculum, I believe the A.O. will really have bridged the gap between the Pagan community & the HOGD/AO, bringing in an unprofaned, profoundly powerful set of Rituals & Rites and getting back to a more secret, direct transmission of unpublished, non-public Rites that are Oath bound and untainted by anyone outside of the Order. This will bring the A.O. back into a state similar to what the original Golden Dawn was like before the schism so many years ago. This is truly a blessing for our Order. I am very thankful that the Third Order Chiefs decided to release this Magick, originally intended for the Original Golden Dawn, right before the schism prevented its transmission. I give David Griffin much credit for pointing out all the hipocracy and contradictions that some of these so called "Golden Dawn" leaders have been caught in. They say in one sentence, that the G.D. is only for Christian Mystics, and in the next, they are magicians again! Have these "Christians" ever read the Bible? Have they no clue how ignorant they are to their own religion's laws & commandments? There is nothing wrong with Mysticism, it has produced many a great sage over the ages, and there have been Mystics around since long before Christianity. However, if your Order is a Mystic Order, just admit it, it's ok. But don't say you are Christian Mystic only & then proceed to perform Golden Dawn Magick! Also there is nothing wrong with Christianity, many people find it very inspiring, but it is not a religion that looks well upon any type of Magick.

    Fraternally in L.V.X.,
    Frater A.T.L.V.

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  7. Ave G.H Fr L.e.S.

    You are correct to emphasis 'the divide' within the Golden Dawn. This divide is the msytical / magical divide. One the mystical side you usually have SRIA types Christian thinking and on the other the Hermetic magical types.

    In my opinion the Golden Dawn is Hermetic, i.e of the Egyptian Mysteries. This contained mainly within the priesthoods of Amen-Ra, Isis and Osiris. Obviously there is a lot of other things, Enochian etc.

    As you know, it Isis (Aset) who is the Mistress and Patron of Magick. The magick esoteric lore of Isis continued in various guises and Hermetic schools under what is known as the Secret Doctrine. It is from the Hermetic school influenced by the earlier Egyptian mysteries that god-forms within ceremonial magick comes into the Western Mystery Tradition.

    In terms of the Golden Dawn many persons are surprised to learn that in the Order of the Golden Dawn system of magic, that it is *Isis* who places the first infusion of god-form-energies into the candidate during the 5=6 ceremony.

    It is not Osiris as some suppose but Isis. It is Isisian energy that draws up and manifests the Osiris god-form in the candidate. This is represented by LVX Sign in "Virgo, Isis, Mighty Mother".

    This is one of the reasons I was very pleased to go through the 5=6 initiation ceremony with a High Priestess of the Isisian Mysteries, and with a small complement of Officers. In my opinion a far superior initiation to what I would of received from Frank Salt performing the ceremony alone in his small bedroom at the Masonic Lodge.

    As every one here probably realises, in the Golden Dawn system, the candidate leaves Ani to become Osiris. Ani starts his alchemical journey from the 0=0 and progresses through the elemental grades and receives various titles when he has completed journeying the Paths for that particular grade. Eventually when Ani has come through Portal, he is ready to receive Isis' magick. This occurs upon the Cross of Suffering. In the Mysteries we use Osiris and NOT Jesus. Though there are obvious similarities.

    In a sense it would be kind of disrespectful to assume Jesus. This is not the Christian way as I understand it. Christianity and its gnosis is a mystical path. While the Golden Dawn is a magical path. There is a divide here.

    The assumption of Isis, Osiris and others however, has always been part of the Egyptian Hermetic magical system. Christianity is another thing all together and I agree it has no part within Christianity.

    V.H Fr Leonard Stevens
    Whare Atua Temple
    http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Jeandecabalis

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  8. When I started down the Hermetic and Golden Dawn Path several years ago, I was a Christian. One thing I quickly discovered is how such philosophies and magical systems challenged my very beliefs. This wasn't an assault on my beliefs though, quite the contrary. It actually made me really reevaluate my thoughts; which is never a bad thing.

    It became pretty clear, without having to really do all that much research (granted the first 3 years weren't even working magic but researching and finding my spiritual center so I did a ton of research) that Christianity is a reformulation religion. This cause two things to occur. First, I slowly became no longer a Christian. In fact I have no theological alignment save the basic principles of Hermeticism. If I was anything I would say a Hermetic, Buddhist, Unitarian Universalist. Secondly, it made me love, appreciate, admire, and delve even deeper into Christianity.

    I did not lose my faith, my faith grew. I could see the WONDERFUL mixture of MANY faiths and systems working together. From Hinduism, to Buddhism, to Judiasm, to Gnosticism, to Hermeticism and Alchemy, to Paganism and much more, all of these were blended into a very precise mixture of spiritual mysticism. Does that devalue Christianity? Not at all! There is a ton one can learn from Christianity, especially the more mystical approach to it. In fact, it is a great starting point so long as you can view true Christianity and not view it through the lens of a church or centuries of abuse.

    Because of the realization that Christianity isn't original I grew closer to The All. Because of this realization, I was able to explore Christianity THOROUGHLY! It was like studying and reading a whole new mystical ideology and without it, I would not be who I am today. In my opinion, this article essentially points to what I found through my own independent research. Christianity doesn't become devalued, it becomes an excellent tool.

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    1. @Fr.LUAM

      Very well said and I fully share your sentiments regarding Christianity. As shared in my last post, The Golden Dawn has no part in Christianity, but Christanity does have a part in the Golden Dawn. Why, because there is a great deal of fantastic mystical information in esoteric Christianity: you have the gnostic scriptures, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the various forgotten or forbidden books of the Bible, various
      theological and mystical writings throughout the Ages. Many of these have in fact influenced the Western Mystery Tradition.

      Like you I have become less Christian but have a much deeper regard and respect for it now. Christianity is more than a tool, it is a hope. But the way of the Church is not my way, I prefer magick. And in this sense Christiantiy is (as I and many have said) a reconstructed religion taking further the mystical teachings of the Pagans and Jews of that time period.

      You may enjoy books such as 'Jesus Sun of God' 'Jesus the Magician' if you haven't already read them.

      In saying all this however, I do believe there is a divide between the mystical approach and the magical approach to the Mysteries.

      In LVX
      VH Fr ACAS
      http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Jeandecabalis

      Delete
  9. David, I personally don't accept the magical/mystical dichotomy that plays a very important role in your analysis. Other than that, though, we obviously agree that Wildoak is misrepresenting the G.D. tradition, and, more broadly, that he seriously misrepesents the whole history of Western occultism/esotericism by denying the central role of "Pagan" survivals in pretty much all forms of Magic, Mysticism, Occultism, etc, throughout the last 2,000 years of western history. The Pagan influence is even quite prominent in those forms of occultism that are overtly and even aggressively Christian. Take Wildoak, for example. Here is an admitted, and even proud Christian (worse still, an Anglican) whose latest book has the Goddess Isis on the cover, and whose title sounds intentionally idolatrous. And in his own self-congratulatory description of the book on his website (http://magicoftheordinary.wordpress.com/by-names-and-images/), Wildoak never, not even once, mentions Christianity! Nor does Christianity ever once come up in the discussion of the book in the comments section on that page.

    In the book itself, Wildoak states of the G.D. "The order itself was not Christian. Throughout the ceremonies and rituals, a great many non-Christian deities are invoked ..."! This shows that Wildoak is at least smart enough to realize that he needs to downplay the whole Christian thing when he trying to sell books.

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    1. Dear Apuleius,

      I am rather astonished that Peregrin has finally admitted his conversion to Anglican Christianity in 2011.

      In my dealings with Peregrin since 2011 in debating the survival of essential remnants of ancient Paganism, Peregrin has rhetorically posed as Pagan and as an impartial champion of academic truth, while claiming that academia has definitively disproven any and all ancient Pagan survival.

      Peregrin's rhetorical position has all along been that of a trojan horse, attempting to debunk any and all Pagan survival as a settled matter proven by academia. He loves to quote Hutton's early positions while writing in a voice that appears Pagan so as to get his message through to Neo-Pagan ears.

      I have called Peregrin out on this over and over - and in reply - Peregrin has repeatedly denied his Christianity.

      I am glad that Peregrin at least is now finally out of the closet once and for all as a Christian.

      All of his previous, propaganda-like articles attacking Pagan survival now finally make perfect sense.

      I anxiously await Peregrin's rationalization for his continued practice of MAGIC, which is by condemned by Christianity as a mortal sin, and even grounds for excomminication.

      More importantly, why on earth does Peregrin write books like "By Names and Images" promoting Magic judged Satanic by other Christians?

      David Griffin

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    2. Apuleius Platonicus writes in reference to Peregrin Wildoak's "By Names and Images":

      "Here is an admitted, and even proud Christian (worse still, an Anglican) whose latest book has the Goddess Isis on the cover, and whose title sounds intentionally idolatrous...And in his own self-congratulatory description of the book on his website, Wildoak never, not even once, mentions Christianity! Nor does Christianity ever once come up in the discussion of the book in the comments section on that page.... In the book itself, Wildoak states of the G.D. "The order itself was not Christian. Throughout the ceremonies and rituals, a great many non-Christian deities are invoked ..."! This shows that Wildoak is at least smart enough to realize that he needs to downplay the whole Christian thing when he trying to sell books."

      It shows even more than that. With this book Peregrin seeks to create an ethos of Pagan authority in the service of a crypto-Christian hidden agenda. Paregrin's true mothves are now apparent.

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  10. I cannot speculate on Wildoak's motivations, but my own opinion is that Magic, and Black Magic (in the truest sense) in particular, has always been at the heart of Christianity. The whole enterprise of Christianity appears to be based, and rather explicitly so, on the malevolent spiritual technology of soul-harvesting. When looked at this way, the Christian attitude toward Pagan Magic is simply a very obvious case of what the Jungians call "projection". Since they are themselves purely Black Magicians dedicated to the corruption of human souls, they automatically assume that all magic is like that. To be clear, I am not suggesting that Wildoak is himself a sinister Black Magician. It is more likely that he is just a pompous fraud. But one never knows.

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  11. I think the hi-jack of Joshua Ben Miriam's female accepting ministry into a misogynistic State Religion was the essence of a Black Magical operation, aimed at no less than the perpetual enslavement of the known World!

    Wherever there are prohibitions AGAINST Magic - there are Black Magicians lurking within and attempting to keep that Spiritual Technology for themselves. One might say much the same about ANY powerful technology - the State wants to OWN it, and aims to deny it to "We The People", and will use the most abominable means to maintain that power differential.

    If we can get back to the real, authentic teachings of Yeheshua then of course these are not going to be at odds with the Perennial Tradition, as they stemmed from the same Root Sources... however these were later Veiled.

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  12. Ave, Mr.Griffin
    thank you for this great post.
    Can you please answer my comments that I sent on your post "Demons, magical hierarchies ..."?
    -- my first language is not English, therefore you may feel my comments are not kind, but I am a fan of you --

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  13. As a committed Pagan I must say I was perturbed initially by the apparent Christian symbolism in Golden Dawn rituals, but I soon came to see that such symbols predate most if not all currently practiced religions. Christianity acquired its symbols from a multitude of places as the Imperator has pointed out.

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  14. Ave Imperator

    This was so great to read,it took me a couple of tries but is very muc what I had been wondering for some years now,before I even contacted you ,I am sure of it now more than ever that is more a system and a practical belief more than anything else and anybod I had ever researched

    As I keep perfoming my Rites and learning it amazes everyday how practical things become and actually how we can be in control of the MAGIC and not just being passive vessels

    For people that have more dedication and also more curiosity the path of the AO Magical system is really the one to take,is working for me in ways I can't describe in a comment
    But of course there is no hate from me to the Catholic religion or to pagans,wiccans and mystic new agers but I am glad too that they can see that we are not "too christian" for them
    Love love love reading this,thanks!

    Soror Luna

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  15. "One sees the diference between Magical rituals and Mystical Rites clearly already in ancient Egypt, where no Goddess or God is prayed to. Prayer to a Goddess or God is only seen in later dynasties where the influence of Mysticism had gained a foothold in Egypt, to the decadence of earlier, purely magical traditions."

    I think that says a lot,and I loved reading this,it took me a few tries but of course now I. Have the answers of the things I. Had been wondering years a go even before I contact Imperator Griffin

    I choose to be in charge and belong to a system,practical and Rites that I can evolve at it every day,to me personally it feels better than to just be a passive vessel waiting for things to happen

    I respect Catholic religion a lot and Judaism and also I am glad the pagans,wiccans can see that we are not "too christian" for them
    I think is the right path if you are willing to do the work and be nonpassive about it ,the AO that is what it helped me to see this about myself and now that I see how things are happening around me I am convinced and more eager,but of course I don't harvest any hate against christians and pagans and even new agers mystics,but is good for them to see the difference between all these things,sometimes all it takes is read a bit instead of taking for granted everything.
    Thanks for this article and for everything else I am infinitely grateful

    Soror Luna

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  16. "I believe that anyone who approaches any of the “Christian” demoninations and asks if that particular group would allow for ANY form of Magic to be performed as part of an approach to Jesus as God, they would be denied."

    This seems like muddled thinking to me. For it takes a moment of reflection to realize the same could be said of the overwhelming majority of scientific institutions. While magic is indeed a science, the institutions and academies that pursue science, have a completely negative view of what they perceive as magic. You are not going to find a physicist at the Max Planck institute who has anything positive to say about magic.

    The negativity and suspicion towards magic is inherent in both religious and scientific circles because magic is always a minority path, just as shamans were the minorities in tribal societies.

    The point being that one does not need to let those inimical to magic define the terms. Magic is large enough to include both science and christianity even if those groups don't recognize it.

    The larger point is that one has to be crystal clear about what one means when one uses terms like "christian" "pagan" and "magic". All of these can be helpful or hurtful depending on how one understands them.

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    1. Actually, Magic is science using principles that are not yet understood. Quantum physics has come a long way towards explaining the forces involved in Magick.

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  17. I don't really have the time nor the interest in reading the entirety of the article, but as a former Christian having approached magick via the Qabalah, Hermetics, the writings of Agrippa, and the method for conjuring angels as laid down by Johannes Trithemius, I have to say that the treatment of magick in the context of Christianity is dealt with poorly here.

    A Golden Dawn'er ought to be very familiar with the errors in translating the Hebrew and Greek to English in a manner that is adequate for dealing with the very specific practices which are condemned in the book. Instead, you simply quote the bible as any Christian or pastor would, without a second thought given to its inaccuracy.

    You also do not take into account the history of Christianity which clearly indicates that today's Christianity has not shit to do with the Christianity of many centuries ago. Christianity outside of its Pauline variants was, very definitely, a mystery tradition of a very Osirian nature. The Gnosis, like it or not, did pass through Christian hands before it got to you guys. It doesn't mean that any one sect gets to take the credit, but don't even try to cut it out of the equation.

    Also, read Agrippa. It's pretty convenient for people to gloss over Agrippa because they have Francis Barrett's "The Magus" and of course a litany of books by Golden Dawn folk, such as Israel Regardie. Why spend time with the source when you have these books that have been redacted and organized into user friendly formats?

    The Three Books of Occult Philosophy are inherently Christian. No, not everything in it is original to Christianity. And the book itself deals with the subject of what kinds of magick are actually forbidden in the bible. It teaches that there definitely exists an esoteric philosophy and magickal practice which is not an offense to God, as it says, but a deepened relationship and connection.

    Hermetic philosophy was developing and taking root right beside early Christianity. They both influenced each other. Hermetic teaching mirrors some of the basic premises of the Father and the Son (LOGOS) so much that to deny a pretty intimate relationship between Hermetic teaching and Christian mysteries is a slipshod attempt to sweep an uncomfortable set of facts under the rug--a set of facts that you wish weren't true, because they may put you at odds with the greater Pagan community.

    How about this... Pagan community: get over it. Your modern Paganism still owes a debt to Christianity. Christianity owes a debt to a litany of other sects, mystery schools, etc.

    It really doesn't say much or have any consequence that Christianity is composed of precious few original symbols, concepts, principles, deities, etc. The same can be said of the traditions Christianity liberally borrowed from.

    People act like Christianity is the only one to have done this. Everything in religion and spirituality is a continuation, borrowing, and evolution of something that came before it. It just happens that you dislike Christianity and you dislike its undeniable association with the Golden Dawn and Rosicrucianism. Today's Christianity totally blows, man. But don't deny the very plain fact that Christianity was a major part of the foundation of the Western Mystery Tradition.

    Read Agrippa. Seriously.

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    1. How about this Frater Serpentis:

      You are in denial of the pre-Christian roots of Magic and of the unbroken Lineages that are a LIVING and vital current which is deeply threatening to those who have used and abused Christianity as their power-toy for centuries - much as they will use and abuse any other political opportunity. These are the facts that you and some others in the Pagan community do not want to hear. Corruption hides in many clothes, even in Christian and Pagan vestments.

      In this instance a specific error spouted by Wildoak has been corrected, and your knee-jerking has done nothing but throw dust at the issue that was being addressed. You just wanted a soap-box, not to engage the topic with even a modicum of respect.

      If you had actually read what is written on this HOGD/AO blog you would know better than to write as you have.

      Read Agrippa, but seriously next time!

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  18. Frater Serpentis wrote:
    "I don't really have the time nor the interest in reading the entirety of the article"

    Then why are you commenting on an article you have not read?

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    1. I am also very surprised by this remark. It suggests that Frater Serpentis would not have the interest in reading much else that has been posted here on cognate matters - and that gives me cause to question why he is posting this AT ALL. Why jump into a discourse that one has neither time nor interest in?

      I guess the article severely pushed a few buttons - the truth can hurt sometimes, but not to worry... as more and more genuine scholarship sets the record straight there will be less noise and more content.

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  19. Frater Serpentis wrote:

    "It just happens that you dislike Christianity"

    Actually, no. There are many things that I do, in fact, like about Christianity. What I do not like are authors ascribing things to Christianity that are simply untrue and repeating those things over and over in article after article.

    The present article is a refutation of a specific claim made by Peregrin Wildoak (that the Golden Dawn and the Rosicrucian tradition are Christian), not an attack on Christianity, per se.

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    1. I don't see any dislike for Christianity here. Why attempt to make that implication? The dislike for dishonesty has nothing at all to do with Christianity!

      This kind of twisting of words is unfortunately all too common a currency when false claims are exposed - and no, there is no anti-Christian conspiracy in HOGD/AO, which cherishes members of ALL persuasions.

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  20. Frater S writes:

    "as a former Christian having approached magick via the Qabalah, Hermetics, the writings of Agrippa, and the method for conjuring angels as laid down by Johannes Trithemius, I have to say that the treatment of magick in the context of Christianity is dealt with poorly here."

    This was answered by Frater LeT in the new article on this blog:

    "We find Pagan teachings again in Trithemius and Agrippa, who while posing as Christians in order to protect themselves, nonetheless communicated the ancient Pagan Celestial Magick. Just look at the letters his "Christian" friends sent to Agrippa before the publication of his occult philosophy (which contains PAGAN Magick with but a Christian veneer), warning Agrippa to be very careful lest he be arrested, tortured, and burned."

    Agrippa taught PAGAN magic with a Christian veneer to avoid arrest.

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    1. "Magick in the context of Christianity" sounds like a line from Peregrine sounding off about how really all Magick is of Christian origin, and there was never any kind of Egyptian Mysteries at all, at all, etc. etc. ;-)

      Magick in this context, was in fact forced to survive as an underground stream through a dark age of oppression. EVERYONE had to act Christian - or face the penalties...

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    2. Some still do. However, the definition of success is changing.

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  21. Serpent and Eagle wrote:

    "Also, read Agrippa. It's pretty convenient for people to gloss over Agrippa because they have Francis Barrett's "The Magus" and of course a litany of books by Golden Dawn folk, such as Israel Regardie. Why spend time with the source when you have these books that have been redacted and organized into user friendly formats?"

    You are making some pretty uninformed assumptions here. People in the Golden Dawn community are not as superficial as you claim they are. For example, in the 5 years of research leading up to my writing the Ritual Magic Manual, I found, corrected, and footnoted a number of errors in G.D. hierarchies. These were verified in earlier sources, including errors found in even Agrippa's work.

    Reading Agrippa is a great idea, except that it is a relatively late work.

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    1. Reading Agrippa while glossing over the socio-political context of his Christianity is also "pretty convenient" for those who would redact and re-organise history to suit their own agendas.

      People in the GD community are for the most part quite a scholarly crowd with large libraries of books in multiple translations, so do let's get the characterization straight.

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    2. @ Jerome Orff

      Regarding Agrippa, Christianity, and Paganism, you also should read the Italian introduction by Arturo Reghini of Agrippa's "De Occulta Philosophia", entitled "Cornelius Agrippa e la sua Magia".

      You will have to use Google translate to read it in English, but you can find it on-line here. It is very enlightening.

      http://www.queendido.org/Arturo_Reghini.pdf

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  22. I didn't need to read the entirety of it to take issue with something I think is skewed and inaccurate.

    I have practiced an awful lot of magick sourced in Agrippa as well as Trithemius. Believe me, dude, it's not all Pagan magick in a Christian veneer. You can't remove from the foundation of the Western Mystery Tradition the Qabalah and Christian Mysticism which is so integral a part of Angelic and Goetic magick. Sorry man, you just can't do it. And what of Enochian? Yes, Pagan elements have carried on through the Western Mystery Tradition, but it isn't strictly Pagan. It is ALSO Christian.... And not simply as a veneer. THAT is an uninformed assumption.

    Have you even read The Art of Drawing Spirits into Crystals? There's not a damn thing about that grimoire that is Paganism hidden in a Christian veneer. Have you made any talismans and conjured Archangels, angels, intelligences, spirits of their planetary hierarchies via the framework of Agrippa's writings? This is not repackaged Paganism, my friend. Paganism undoubtedly bore a tremendous influence on what became Renaissance era magick, but this idea that its relationship with Christianity was entirely a front is frankly bullshit.

    Agrippa didn't teach Pagan magick with a Christian veneer to avoid arrest. Even if he had presented a useable, cohesive system of Christian magick, he would face no less stiff a penalty. His writings were carefully crafted in the form of educational material which deliberately scattered info throughout the book which requires a judicious student to piece together.

    Yes, there is undoubtedly Paganism in it. But again, this blanket generalization that it is all simply Paganism in Christian clothes is just false. Completely.

    Additionally, a considerable amount of the tech: kameas, sigils, enumerations, tables, correspondences, etc. are deeply rooted in Qabalah (which I am aware has partial Pagan roots as well), Christian Mysticism, and symbolism and meanings pulled directly from the Scriptures. A lot of this stuff was not ancient by any means.

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    1. Care Frater SeA,

      First off, you appear to not yet to fully appreciate the profound influence (Pagan) Egyptian Magic had on Qabalah. It is clear even in your own Christian Bible that "Moses was instructed in the sacred sciences of Egypt."

      You also remain unaware of the actual roots of central elements of the magical traditions you mention, which actually arise from the (Pagan) Pythagorean and Neoplatonic traditions (magic squares, etc.)

      I can fully empathise with your crisis, suddenly encountering new and unexpected information about the Magical systems you have been practicing based on public information, yet as an uninitiate, you have not yet properly understood.

      For example, your practice of Agrippa's Magic of the Kameothic squares has been largely a waste of your time.

      As every Second Order initiate of the Alpha Omega knows, Agrippa's magic squares, as published are encrypted. Do you really naively believe that Agrippa, as disciple of Trithemius simply published the entire system unencrypted? Of course, he did not.

      The Magic squares and complete magical system can not be used without the initiatic keys to decrypt them.

      Read here for more info:

      http://hermetic-golden-dawn.blogspot.com/2011/09/silence-broken-secret-chiefs-communique.html

      The initiatic keys that unlock Agrippa's magic squares are available to Second Order initiates of the A.O., as well as the complete magical system associated with these squares. This system is, by the way, subtantially broader and more profound than you presently know.

      This is a prefect illustration of the profound difference between a Magical Adept and an aspirant playing at Magic using published sources.

      David Griffin
      Imperator Lux ex Septentrionis
      Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
      Chief Adept, Rosicrucian Order of Alpha Omega

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    2. PS - I know you are a bit limited as all of the literature does not exist in English. Still, regarding Agrippa, Christianity, and Paganism, you really do need to read the Italian introduction by Arturo Reghini of Agrippa's "De Occulta Philosophia", entitled "Cornelius Agrippa e la sua Magia".

      You will have to use Google translate to read it in English, but you can find it on-line here. It will clear up many of your understandings.

      http://www.queendido.org/Arturo_Reghini.pdf

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  23. Dude, you're totally dodging the fact that it is not strictly Pagan. This is the problem.

    I am well aware that this-borrowed-from-that and so forth, but this process is not limited to Christianity. I believe you're failing to see the greater picture in that while Christianity, both exoteric and esoteric, have many Pagan roots, Christianity as a development and evolution of earlier Mysteries still imparted its own character and contributed something distinctly, shall we say... "Abrahamic" to the melting pot which is the Western Mystery Tradition.

    You act as though it is all one huge coverup through and through and that the WMT picked up nothing original or useful from its transmission through Christianity, but you know that that is patently false.

    Also, read the Corpus Hermeticu: specifically the Divine Pymander. Consider its place and history and try to tell me, with a single shred of integrity, that it is not clear that Christianity and Hermeticism were in bed together. And no, Christianity did not just steal it all away. Hermeticism and Christianity have a symbiotic relationship.

    I am not having a crisis. This is not "new information" nor is it even a new argument. I am coming from a place of historical & theoretical understanding and practical experience in Paganism, Christianity (inner and outer), Hermetics, Qabalah, Renaissance magick & astrology, alchemical teachings, Thelema, Golden Dawn magick, OTO initiation and teachings, study of the A.'.A.'., folk traditions & African Diaspora, a sprinkling of Eastern philosophy & spiritual tech -- and I am here to tell you, friend, that Christianity isn't just the elephant in the room and Paganism isn't the only forefather of what is today Western Occultism.

    This whole "well this came first so anything that borrowed anything from it later is only a copycat and a veneer with nothing to contribute" is ridiculous and reveals that you are obviously uncomfortable and rather probably resentful of the association of the WMT, and consequently the Golden Dawn, with Christianity.

    I'm not denying a considerable portion of what you have to say--simply the parts that gloss over the irrefutable fact that Christianity has contributed its part to at least the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Western Esotericism at large--parts not always completely lifted and repackaged from Paganism.

    For God's sake, not even Crowley could avoid the Christ in occultism, where do you stand to deny it?

    Anyway, clearly you and I will have to agree to disagree. We'll have to simply accept that we are Brothers in the LVX and leave it at that, because I can absolutely guarantee neither of us will sufficiently persuade one another.

    Fare well.

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    1. You are arguing with yourself, Frater. Perhaps you should read the article again. I never said that the Golden Dawn is Pagan. I said from the very beginning that the Golden Dawn is ecumenical and Non-Sectarian.

      It is Peregrin Wildoak who began this disucssion with the odd claim that the Golden Dawn is Christian. It was therefore necessary to demonstrate just how much ancient Paganism has merely been repackaged by Christianity.

      What still astonishes me most is how Trinitarian Christian SRIA leaders are so obsessed with Magic, which is roundly condemned by all Christian sects, and by some even as Satanism.

      I notice that no one, not even you, has spoken out in defense of the practice of Magic in SRIA, judged as Satanism by the canons of Trinitarian Christianity.

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