Flame War vs. The New Age-Golden Dawn Debate

By Guest Blogger

H. Frater AIT

H Soror L. of the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn wrote on the EOGD blog:

Subject: A response to David Griffin's lastest accusations. ( Golden Dawn )

"There you go again David. Time after time, year after year YOU (David Griffin the Founder of the New A.O. Golden Dawn (Not to be confused with Mathers A.O. or the Golden Dawn of 1888)) keep accusing Robert Zink of just about everything from the weather to a flat tire you had on the freeway. This kind of reasoning gets a bit absurd, but maybe it is a symptom of a deeper problem that may not only affect you, David, but those you teach.

The odd thing about it all is that the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn is a worldwide fraternity with numerous members who are encouraged to think for themselves. Thus, your recent attack on Robert is nothing more than a type of paranoia that is best left to yourself and not shared with your students and others on the Internet.

David, you make yourself look ridiculous by accusing every website, every blog, every article of being promoted by or a sock puppet of Robert. I am certain that Robert and all the others you accuse on a regular basis of attacking you have better things to do.There is more to life and magic than sitting around and devising up negative websites about David Griffin. If Robert were behind every website that you accuse him of, he would have to have a web based company about the size of Google. Believe it or not David, you are not the center of the Universe.

Now one of two things is clear:

1. David, you are paranoid. If that is the case, neither the shadow in the closet nor Robert are out to get you. It is time to get clear, you have promoted some good work with your work for Haiti, keep going with other projects. You can make a difference in our world. You are a bright person, build on it.

2. You know that neither Robert, nor Chic, nor Pat are behind these attacks but are simply other peoples opinions. However, anytime someone shares his or her thoughts about you, your work, your Order, or anything else you see it as a propaganda opportunity. So, you play victim and revert to childish behavior of smearing someone’s name over and over and over. The objective is to gain power and eliminate the competition. Sadly, you view other groups such as the EOGD or the HOGD or the G.D. as competition, when in truth they could be your partners in the GREAT WORK."

Care et H. Soror L.,

Since you posted on the official, EOGD blog, I am posting my response to you here instead of on my own Heavens Within Earth blog.

Soror, your post is a defense against an attack that never was. G.H.Frater L.E.S.' (David Griffin) recent posts contained opinion's that highlighted scholarly/philosophical differences between our two Orders. Nowhere did he personally attack G.H.Frater P.D.R., nor debate the merit or worth of your Order. He merely pointed out that anonymous published attacks on the HOGD/AO and its leaders sadly have resumed on a pro-EOGD attack blog, and that Robert Zink's refusal to condemn such anonymous attack blogs and websites amounts to tacit approval of them!

Let's not let the actual debate that started this discussion get drowned out by rhetoric. There remain real differences between our Orders that are worth discussion, and we need to be able to have these discussions like grown-ups if the modern Golden Dawn is going to have any hope at peace. Responding to scholarly debate with a lengthy screed attacking David Griffin personally adds nothing.

Why not instead engage in actual, factual debate about the relative merits of our differing ideas, if you disagree? Why set up straw-men and make comments that suggest you hardly read Mr. Griffin's posts at all?

David Griffin, as well as myself and many people in our order (and the greater Golden Dawn community), don't agree with all of Mr.Zink's basic ideas; that happens. This part of being part of a diverse Golden Dawn community with different Orders with differing ideas. So what? If you feel our reasoning is flawed, then engage in debate, instead of personally assaulting folk. You can pick apart our IDEAS all day long, and I'll never call you anything but Soror. Disagreeing with our Order on fundamental philosophies isn't a personal attack, it's a difference in opinion. If your ideas are sound, stand by them and engage. If they are not, have the stones to change them.

But there is no need to hide behind silly personal attacks; Your Order is more than the few New Age ideas many of us in the Golden Dawn community disagree with. You are reacting as if disagreeing with your ideas is assaulting you personally, and having earned the "Honored" appellation I would expect that sort of behaviour to be beneath you. I rather suspect it is.

Your blog post is obviously rooted in the same enmities and fears brought on by that ridiculous "flame war". I was excited to see David make the effort two years ago to promote harmony and nip this epidemic of stupidity in the bud. Suprisingly, it's worked fairly well....with some exceptions. We've removed all the anti-EOGD posts from our fora, and actively and publicly discouraged anonymous bloggers from posting attacks against the EOGD. And guess what? They shut up!

We have even offered to remove attacks from our respective websites together and in alliance with you, keeping only those things that discuss scholarly/practical differences between our differing approaches to the magic of the Golden Dawn. Your Order has so far unfortunately rejected this healthy proposal. Your websites remain littered with negative garbage against the HOGD/AO and attacking our leaders personally; nothing remotely scholarly that discusses practical differences, but ridiculous remarks referring to "Golden Dawn orders that subscribe to the hateful policies of Adolph Hitler".

I mean, really? This is the result of your Theurgy? This is how the EOGD respects and encourages the growth of our tradition? Your forum archives still harbor thousands of searchable posts with similar ad hominum attacks!

Robert Zink has refused David Griffin's offer to bury the hatchet. How do you accuse David of attacking you in the present with a straight face? How is this reflective of your stated desire that we all be "partners in the Great Work"? Meet us half-way, and take all the b.s. down. Should you find anything that's an outright attack and not a debate/conversation lingering on our site, I have been assured by our leaders we will do the same. Let's stop poisoning the atmosphere with all of this.

What's bizarre is that all of the folk I've interacted with from your Order on a singular basis have been resoundingly supportive of clearing away all the low-level bickering. It's only at the top that I'm hearing/seeing this nonsense. Getting rid of the garbage doesn't mean we're going to suddenly agree about everything and become BFF's. No amount of goodwill is going to make us agree on New Age notions like "The Law of Attraction," "The coming 2012 shift," and "Astral Initiation" being traditional Golden Dawn, or whichever ideas of ours make little sense to you.

We don't have to agree, we do have to debate and challenge each other. First of all, because the public has a right to know about the real differences between our orders so they can make informed decisions about which order they resonate with more. Besides, healthy debate is how good ideas are promoted and terrible one's discarded traditionally, and having a community without that sort of discourse negatively affects the evolution and growth of our Tradition. But to add more poison to a noxious atmosphere with personal and unnecessary attacks is against our shared goal.

Soror, I want to encourage you to air your disagreements, but let's do so with substance. Take GH Frater L.E.S.'s arguments apart, and dismantle them with your well thought-out and convincing arguments. Make the case for your ideas, and he will make the case for his. That is how adults--let alone Adepts and aspiring Adepts--should behave, not calling people names and attempting to demean them as you did with David Friffin in your post.

Let's have earnest Fraternal debate; we can respect each other and act fraternally without agreeing.

In LVX,

H. Frater A.I.T.

The Astonishing Truth About Golden Dawn Lineage

Frater TDO, on Robert Zink's Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn forum recently wrote:

Ave, In my opinion, lineage means nothing, it it only a tool for certain orders to claim superiority over others...TDO

VH Soror FSO, also on Robert Zink's Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn forum recently wrote:

I'm just curious as to the communities opinions on the importance of lineage in an Order...is it necessary for the current to be present or is lineage just another way to give yourself "credential" ...please do not put down any Orders..I am just curious about everyone's opinions.

Care et VH Soror FSO et Frater TDO,

You each appear to have not yet fully understood the true relevance and function of lineage in esoteric traditions. In certain traditions, lineage may indeed merely be a formal means of mutual recognition, as it is in the case of Freemasonry, which uses charters and systems of mutual recognition between Grand lodges to establish 'regularity.'

VH Sroro FSO gives only two alternatives, when in fact there is another as well. In answer to VH Soror FSO's first question, I have no doubt that using the Ritual Magic Manual to generate a great deal of magical current. So, magical current certainly can be generated using the magical technology presently available to the public. However, this does not mean that the only other alternative is that esoteric lineage is a mere "credential" as you suggest. This is not at the case with Hermetic and Rosicrucian spiritual lineages, however.

Pat Zalewksi recently wrote on the same subject:

The two things I would encourage the novice to do is give a wide berth and lineage freaks who tout this as something akin to the touch of the bishop. Lineage does not cut it any more and it is what you get out of it that counts. 

In Christianity, the doctrine of Apostolic Succession maintains that the Christian Church today is the spiritual successor to the original body of believers in Christ, composed of the Apostles. In pre-Protestant Reformation Churches, Apostolic Succession is claimed as having been passed through unbroken lines of bishops beginning with the original Apostles.

If lineage in esoteric orders were strictly limited to either of the above forms of lineage, indeed, you might correctly say that lineage was only about "credential." When it comes to the spiritual lineages of both Hermetic and Rosicrucian traditions, this, however, is not at all the case.

Admittedly, lineage, like trademarks, is indeed is supposed to provide a basic form of protection for the public - that what members find is actually what they associate with the name or the spiritual tradition. In the case of the Golden Dawn, one important aspect of lineage in this sense means that you will find, for example, classical, traditional, physical initiation in real Golden Dawn temples rather than recent, New Age inventions like "Astral Initiation" and "Self Initiation" as is the case with several recently started Golden Dawn variants.

The Golden Dawn is not unique in this respect. In esotericism, numerous orders use lineage as a means of ensuring a direct transmission of spiritual principles and energies.  Martinist orders, for examples all claim lineage deriving from Louis-Claude de St. Martin. 

L'Ordre Martiniste (the Martinist Order) came about in 1884 when Gerard Encausse (Papus) met August Chaboseau. They discovered that they had both apparently received Martinist initiation through two different chains of succession, which linked back to Saint-Martin and his original disciples. 

Papus claimed to have come into the possession of the original papers of de Pasqually and to have been given authority in the Rite of Saint-Martin by his friend Henri Viscount Delaage. However, Encausse realized that there was a "missing link" in his own chain of succession: he and Chaboseau therefore "swapped initiations" in order to consolidate their lineages.

The above questions raised by EOGD's Frater TDO and VH Soror FSO, and by OGD's Pat Zalewski fail to fully consider the primary function of lineage in spiritual traditions. This is not surprising, considering that even Golden Dawn scholar, Pat Zalewski, apparently has not yet fully comprehended the true nature and spiritual importance of Hermetic and Rosicruican lineage for the Golden Dawn and its initiates. 

The concept of spiritual lineage is found not only in Western esoteric orders, but also in various spiritual traditions of the East. Lineage, much like trademarks, may indeed serve to prevent public confusion about a given spiritual tradition, but in the case of the Hermetic and Rosicrucian traditions, these lineages carry with them sets of spiritual transmissions or realizations, precisely as in the case of Dharma transmission in Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism, for example, maintains records of their historical teachers who, according to the traditional history of that school, have passed the Dharma from generation to generation in an unbroken line since the time of the Buddha. Dharma transmission is the formal confirmation by a master of Zen or Chan Buddhism of a student's awakening.

This one-to-one transmission is said to trace back over 2,500 years to Gautama Buddha when he gave dharma transmission to his disciple Mahakasyapa, who is regarded as the first patriarch of Zen in India. Each of the initiations of the lineages of Zen or Tibetan Buddhism carry with them certain sets of spiritual exercises that are practiced in order to achieve very specific spiritual realizations. This is exactly the same case with initiation into the higher transmissions of the Hermetic and Rosicrucian traditions!

One case in point is Hermetic and Rosicrucian Internal Alchemy, which uses the subtle fires of the body, including love and sexuality, to cook the "prima materia" of the body itself, to produce rapid growth of the energetic bodies of the initiate. The goal of this true "Opus Magnum" is the cultivation of a Solar Body of Light, with the goal of achieving conscious immortality in the the Solar dimension during the lifetime of the Adept, thus eliminating the need for further incarnations on a planet at the material level.

In answer to the questions raised by Pat Zalewksi, Frater TDO, and VH Soror FSO, if all you are interested in is merely studying the Golden Dawn techniques published by Israel Regardie, then both initiation and lineage indeed are relatively unimportant. If, however, you are interested in the astounding spiritual development and realization that the living Hermetic and Rosicrucian traditions have to offer you, then actual initiation in these living lineages is extremely important.

Moreover, I have heard other members of the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn comment in the past:

Lineage does not matter. All that matters is to do the work.

This depends on how you define the work of the Golden Dawn. If all that you are interested in is to practice the techniques published by Israel Regardie, then you do not even need a Golden Dawn order for that. You could get by nicely by purchasing Regardie's Golden Dawn book together with my Ritual Magic Manual. 

However, if you are interested in spiritual development, then it is impossible to complete the true "Opus Magnum" following a Western path without initiation directly into the living Hermetic and Rosicrucian lineages that go far beyond what either Regardie or I published. The advanced Hermetic and Rosicrucian techniques are revealed only to initiates, as is true even in the lineages of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism in the East.

So in this very real, and purely spiritual sense - lineage does matter - a lot!

Sub Umbra Alarum Tuarum, Yeheshua

David Griffin

G.H. Frater Lux Ex Septentrionis

Imperator Ordinis, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega

 "Ex Deo Nascimur.

In Yeheshua Morimur

Greetings From Paris & Peace In The Golden Dawn Community

Brothers and Sisters of the Golden Dawn,

Greetings from Paris, France, home of the Ahathoor Temple No. 7, founded by S.L. MacGregor Mathers in 1892, the Grand Temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn!

Over the last week I have not had much time to observe what has been happening on the Internet, as I have been here in Paris, France, where I presided over an International Conclave of the College of the Adepti of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega, hosted by the Ahathoor Temple No. 7, Grand Temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and Mother Temple of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega.
These events hosted by Ahathoor Temple No. 7 were extremely well attended, marvelous experiences; with Golden Dawn Adepts and Initiates in attendance from France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, the UK, Spain, Sweden, Canada, and the USA. I will blog more about the Ahathoor Temple Equinox ritual and all of the other exciting events once I get back to the USA. (I will have plenty of photos to share with you from the Ahathoor Temple and events here in Paris as well).

Needless to say, I have been away from the Internet for nearly a week. Looking at the net this morning has not been a pleasant experience. The defamatory anonymous websites that have plagued the Golden Dawn community for decades have now spread to the Blogosphere. I guess this was to be expected following the olive branch offered by the HOGD/AO on the Vernal Equinox.

There are obviously forces and people that want the ENTIRE Golden Dawn community and tradition to look bad. These forces will clearly stop at nothing to stir continuing strife between the Golden Dawn orders and temples.

Two new ANONYMOUS BLOGS, one attacking Robert Zink and the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn, and another attacking the HOGD/AO and myself have appeared in the Blogosphere over the last week.

Despite EOGD's continuing harsh criticism of HOGD/AO and its leaders on the EOGD blog, the HOGD/AO and I nonetheless stand firmly by our Brothers and Sisters in the EOGD in condemning all anonymous defamation of both of our orders, whether on anonymous websites or blogs.

This continuing anonymous defamation of both our orders further underscores the need for unparalleled cooperation between Golden Dawn orders, and particularly the need for HOGD/AO and the EOGD to build better relations with each other.

The first and most difficult task before us it to build multilateral trust.

This will not be an easy task, as is evidenced by the buzz in the Blogosphere since our Vernal Equinox announcement.

For example, Morgan Drake Eckstein of Bast Temple in Denver wrote on his Gleanings From the Dawn blog:

Given the history of the Golden Dawn community, I am leery of any olive branch that is held out. For the matter, I am leery of the statement that we must never have another witch war. I would love to see the occult community get along with one another. But on the day it happens, Ha-Satan will skating to work and Hel, his Northern counterpart (sort-of), will inherit a tropical paradise. I doubt that I am alone in being paraniod. While I have yet to consult with my fellow Bast Temple members about the latest development in the Golden Dawn saga, I am sure that a vote of caution will result.

Morgan: Given the history of legal actions and negative marketing between Golden Dawn orders, your caution is very wise. We are cautious as well, and frankly, many HOGD/AO Senior Adepts are so mistrustful that they advise me against pursuing the cause of peace any further. Still, the initiative to improve relations between Golden Dawn orders is very real, and has already been backed up by actions on both sides, although admittedly small ones, rather than mere words or empty posturing. Beginning at the Vernal Equinox, the HOGD/AO unilaterally took the first steps. Not only did we publish our Equinox blog message, but HOGD/AO also unilaterally took the step of refusing to approve any posts critical of any other Golden Dawn orders, temples, or leaders on our Yahoo forum. This was an important gesture of good faith on our part.

In return, HOGD/AO asked Robert Zink and the EOGD to respond in kind and no longer approve any posts critical of any other Golden Dawn orders, groups, or temples, including our own. To their great credit, all negative posts attacking our order and its leaders ceased to be approved on the EOGD Yahoo forum thereafter. This positive action by Robert Zink and the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn should not be overlooked and is to be highly and exceptionally commended.

The cessation of the publishing of posts critical of both EOGD and HOGD/AO on their mutual Yahoo fora is an extremely important step in the right direction. Indeed, history may bear witness to this was an important turning point in the history of the Golden Dawn.

Admittedly, however, this is not enough. There still remains plenty offensive and inappropriate content criticizing other Golden Dawn orders on the websites of several Golden Dawn orders or their members.

I propose that ALL of the Golden Dawn orders next move simultaneously and MULTILATERALLY to remove all objectionable content from our respective websites as well as from the websites of our members. The HOGD/AO will obviously not do this alone or unilaterally, as Senior Adepts of HOGD/AO argue that Robert Zink and the EOGD would merely use this to attempt to gain an unfair business and marketing advantage.

The mistrust of numerous of HOGD/AO's Senior Adepts has been reinforced by recent posting on the EOGD blog at golden-dawn.blogspot.com where the EOGD members continue to post weblogs critical of our order that attempt to blame everything on the HOGD/AO and myself and that do not take any responsibility for the objectionable material still remaining on the EOGD operated websites, etc.

To be quite frank with you, there are members of the HOGD/AO who caution me that I should not trust Robert Zink and EOGD at all. They argue that Robert Zink does not want peace under any circumstances. They argue that EOGD will never take down the objectionable material from the EOGD websites because Mr. Zink uses this material to gain an unfair marketing advantage by trying to scare people away from HOGD/AO. These same HOGD/AO members also argue that Robert Zink needs conflict with the HOGD/AO because he needs an enemy to unite his order.

I am certain that, in light of the above, you can understand that the HOGD/AO will obviously not remove objectionable material alone or unilaterally.

I, however, am willing to take a chance and to give Robert Zink and the EOGD the benefit of the doubt. The time has come for us to build more and more trust.

I propose that all Golden Dawn orders next move simultaneously and multilaterally to remove all objectionable content from our respective websites as well as from the websites of our members.

As I mentioned before, trust must be built. The mutual cessation of approval of hostile posts on both the EOGD and HOGD/AO Yahoo Fora has helped a lot. There is no doubt about this. However, there is a great deal more remaining to be done.

Here is material that HOGD/AO deems inappropriate and would like to see removed:

A. From EOGD websites and Yahoo fora:

1. "The Truth about the Golden Dawn and a Few Dangerous Megalomaniacs!" (http://www.esotericgoldendawn.com/tradition_truthseries_megalomaniacs.htm)
3. http:// www. esotericgoldendawn.com/ouro_officialresponse.htm
and at:
4. http:// www. golden-dawn.org/bkrev_ritualmagicmanual.htm
5. "Beware! No Sex Magick in the Golden Dawn!" (http:// www. esotericgoldendawn.com/tradition_sexmagic.htm)
6. The 1432 posts remaining in the archives of the EOGD Yahoo! forum that are hostile towards HOGD/AO and its leaders.

(It should be noted that, while some of the above material does not mention our order or its leaders by name, it is clear in conjunction with anonymously published material to whom they are referring).

B. From the website operated by Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn member, Nagasiva Yronwood's website:
1. http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric/occultism/griffinbio.txt
2. All pages from from the osogd.org site linking to the above.

C. Finally, the inappropriate page on the website operated by Aaron Leitch, member of the board of another Golden Dawn order and in clear violation of previous agreements at:
1. http://kheph777.tripod.com/rev_rmm.html

In return, HOGD/AO pledges likewise to remove all objectionably perceived material from our own websites and forum on an EQUAL and QUID PRO QUO basis. I formally request that leaders of Golden Dawn orders email me at Chief.Adept@Golden-Dawn.Com to discuss what material they would like to see removed from our websites, etc.

Many HOGD/AO members believe that Robert Zink will NEVER remove the above listed objectionable material the aforementioned reasons. They even caution me against continuing this initiative, as they believe that Mr. Zink and EOGD will merely try to use even this against our order. They believe that in response to this blog, they will merely attack us again on the EOGD blog, try to justify the objectionable content on their website, and to go on blaming everything on us while refusing to take any responsibility for their own objectionable material.

I disagree.

Robert Zink and the EOGD have already gained a little of my trust by doing the right thing once. They have since the Equinox ceased all publication of hostile posts on their Yahoo forum. Therefore, against the advice of senior members of HOGD/AO, I remain willing to give Mr. Zink and the EOGD every benefit of the doubt.

The anonymously published defamatory websites and blogs attacking EOGD as well as HOGD/AO (or any other Golden Dawn order or leaders) are harming the ENTIRE Golden Dawn community and tradition.

The only way to put a stop to this nonsense once and for all is for the ENTIRE Golden Dawn community to abandon blaming one another, set aside our differences, and take a united stand against the defamation, no matter who it is directed at!

Therefore, contrary to the belief of Senior members of HOGD/AO, I do not believe that Robert Zink needs an enemy so desperately that he would rather let the entire Golden Dawn community suffer just to go on trying to DEMONIZE the HOGD/AO or myself.

In fact, I believe the opposite. I believe that EOGD and Robert Zink are serious in wanting peace. I believe that their Pow Wow initiative was serious and that they still are serious about wanting peace now. I do not believe that this was just all empty posturing from them.

I also believe that Robert Zink and the EOGD will abandon trying to blame everything on HOGD/AO and will instead help us to end the defamation in every direction.

In short, I believe that Robert Zink and the EOGD will do the right thing.

Sub Umbra Alarum Tuarum, Yeheshua
David Griffin
G.H. Frater Lux Ex Septentrionis
Imperator Ordinis, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
Chief Adept, R.R. et A.C.
Archon Basileus, Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega

"Ex Deo Nascimur.
In Yeheshua Morimur.
Per Sanctum Spiritum Reviviscimus"