tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post2908979249248690588..comments2023-09-01T10:08:28.177-07:00Comments on The Golden Dawn Blog: Urban Legends: Neo-Pagans & Golden Dawn Forgeries - Answer to Ronald Hutton and Ellic HoweImperator David Griffinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05569334890339311989noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-90623903109865548152011-10-09T05:16:12.533-07:002011-10-09T05:16:12.533-07:00Continuation is often decried - the whole Gardener...Continuation is often decried - the whole Gardener/Wicca story is still open to speculation and often is disputed. However, some years ago I spent some months in Tuscany and found myself involved with the local strega. These were not neo-Pagans, but locals who were following the traditions that had gone before them. What was interesting, was to note the similarities with some fundamental aspects of wicca. The initiation - physically diffefrent from wicca was basically the same structure - the cermonial scourging, etc, could quite possibly be Gardner's addition. The idea of waiting a 'year and a day' also appears to have it's roots i the rural stregan structure. The tools, a black handled wooden knife and wands, are directly connected to these initiatory similarities. I am hoping to go into greater detail in the book I am currently working on, outlining my experiences with the strega. However, as for the idea that pagnism goes no further back than the 50's and 60's, the tools I was presented with predate Gardner and the 60's occult revival by at least twenty years, possibly more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-68524517975676265562011-05-15T22:10:12.314-07:002011-05-15T22:10:12.314-07:00Hi, i've just come back from the Kalash valley...Hi, i've just come back from the Kalash valley and must correct a dangerously erronous statement in the text above. Kalashas have been in theses areas for around 3000 years, which sets them there long before the greeks arrived. More than likely they are a strands of Aryan invaders that sought a passage through the HinduKush and stayed there. there are a few Vedic references, some of the ritual could even offer reminiscences of old Nordic paganism. The dances and song are that of shamanic cultures. <br />with brotherly love<br />FAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-67325867056470452112010-11-08T11:39:02.285-08:002010-11-08T11:39:02.285-08:00Please see my rebuttal to Peregrin's above com...Please see my rebuttal to Peregrin's above comment at http://hermetic-golden-dawn.blogspot.com/2010/11/roots-of-modern-paganism-debate-ii.htmlImperator David Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569334890339311989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-60908320347835332082010-11-08T01:07:04.719-08:002010-11-08T01:07:04.719-08:00I think, and by no means I have not done any resea...I think, and by no means I have not done any research but it seems that there is a christian agenda here, to dismiss paganism as a falicy which has no roots is pretty stupid. Remove the opposition, perhaps this is the true agenda of Dr.Hutton's "Research".It is a marketinp strategy, It is shameful to continue this "I am holier than though" routine behind the disguise of scholarchip. Perhaps he is a front man of the roman catholic church. I don't hold any grudges agains anyone, but if we look at history christiand has by its very roots been fundamentalist. There is only one faith etc. This isn't meant as an attack on any religion and we have thr right to worship in the way we deem best personally. But we have the right to know about our heritage ,worship is as much of an importance as knowing who your granparent were. I.e we have the right to know where we came from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-24545925718588164022010-11-07T14:51:04.285-08:002010-11-07T14:51:04.285-08:00I would like to suggest people interested in the o...I would like to suggest people interested in the origins of the Golden Dawn read Stairway to Heaven: Chinese alchemists, Jewish Kabbalists, and the art of spiritual transformation, by Peter Levenda. In one of the later chapters Mr Levenda finds plenty of evidence for a connection between the Golden Dawn and the Asiatic Brethren, giving credence to their European origins.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-75683451167963138492010-11-07T01:12:00.722-07:002010-11-07T01:12:00.722-07:00Hello again,
Sorry if I do not have the energy or...Hello again,<br /><br />Sorry if I do not have the energy or time to really go into this. I have done all this before and do not wish to go over it too much. Some stuff is on MOTO, most was years back and not on-line. This is why I ask folk to do their own research. <br /><br />Just a few points then. <br /><br />As Pallas says (thank you) I am referring to some not all. <br /><br />Of course Pagan does not equal Wicca. However, there is no physical EVIDENCE to suggest paganism remained a viable RELIGIOUS path in Europe up to the 20th century. <br /><br />Of course there were and are pagan survivals; customs, deity prayers, conflation with Christian saints etc. No one disputes this. What I am saying is that there is no evidence that these survivals existed as a religious alternative to Christianity as a full religious tradition. Sadly Christianity subsumed or killed most of these traditions. Folk magical practices, awareness of deities at wells etc do not a religion make, especially when most of the folk doing this named themselves Christians and would attend Christian churches. <br /><br />Hutton never asserts beyond England and I speculate based on physical evidence.<br /><br />The leaders of most neo-pagan traditions that became visible in the 60s and 70s had some contact or training with Wicca. Whilst not Wiccan, many from that time drew from Wicca. It is only from the 80s and 90s that we see Pagan reconstructionism consciously forming itself apart from (and sometimes in opposition to) Wicca. <br /><br />As for your suggestion that unknown pagan activity may have been happening, it really matters little. We can only judge by the evidence. There may have been a secret cult of the Easter Bunny or the Intestine of Judas…if we cannot see evidence of it, we do not know. <br /><br />To assert or believe something without evidence requires a level of base faith. This I think is inappropriate in mature religion and certainly has no place, to my mind, in the esoteric traditions. We do not accept literal interpretations of scripture without evidence. I see no reason to accept interpretations of Europe’s pagan past without evidence also. <br /><br />And while my ego appreciates being described as a Christian apologetic, this is really beyond my field of expertise. <br /><br />Thanks :)Peregrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508191641503321789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-31445346969868053192010-11-06T11:15:34.162-07:002010-11-06T11:15:34.162-07:00@Fr. LES:
Although I'm agreeing with most of ...@Fr. LES:<br /><br />Although I'm agreeing with most of your criticisms so far (I'd have to do the research myself before forming a real opinion, of course), I believe you're dismissing Fr. Peregrin far too quickly out of hand.<br /><br />He never said that Wicca was the end-all-be-all of paganism, he said that pagan religious activity (in all its various colors) became widespread (keyword here) only after Wicca did. Although some of this religious activity was unrelated to and did not draw from Wicca, it seemed to appear appear out of a vacuum, which gives credence to the idea that <b>most</b> (another keyword) pagan religion was "revived" after this point.<br /><br />Although surely there are some truly surviving pagan religions, I know of very, very few instances of modern pagans actually practicing them outside of isolated communities. You say that many modern pagans "misidentify" themselves with the "neo" prefix. Where are the examples of modern pagans (especially in the West) practicing these living traditions, rather than a revival? I'd love to be proven wrong here, but I've seen no evidence for myself that suggests that any of these living traditions are in widespread use.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009778570667265968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-23228089492158354962010-11-06T09:30:21.998-07:002010-11-06T09:30:21.998-07:00@Pallas Renatus
it is sad that far too many Pagan...@Pallas Renatus<br /><br />it is sad that far too many Pagans uncritically tske Hutton at face value.<br /><br />This becomes insidious when Christian apologeticists (like Peregrin) seeking to debunk Paganism refuse even to discuss specific issues in a serious manner, and instead merely retort that 'basically all scholars agree with Hutton.'<br /><br />In truth, when actually investigated, it becomes apparent that not all scholars actually do agree with Hutton. In fact, not even all of the scholars that Hutton cites in Triumph of the Moon as providing confirmation of his theories agree with him. Far too frequently Hutton has actually misrepresented their findings as supporting his theories, as I mentioned above in the case of Ginzburg.Imperator David Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569334890339311989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-6489269376356585302010-11-06T01:45:44.020-07:002010-11-06T01:45:44.020-07:00What you point out, Mikael is but one example of t...What you point out, Mikael is but one example of the gaping holes in Dr. Hutton's investigation. Where Hutton stays within the specified area of his inquiry, namely Wicca and southern England, Hutton does make a very strong case. It is Hutton's sweeping proclamations concerning the rest of Europe that erodes the overall credibility of his investigation.<br /><br />Take, for example, Hutton's rather pedantic attack on Charles Godfrey Leland, author of "Aradia, the Gospel of the Witches." Without any justification whatsoever, Hutton proclaims that:<br /><br />"No other modern Italian folklorist has turned up evidence for anything like the Vangel." <br /><br />What about the eminent Italian scholar Carlo Ginzburg then? Has Hutton even read Ginzburg?<br /><br />Charles Leland states that Aradia is the name of a Pagan goddess, citing Pipernus as the source of this assertion. Leland also discusses his own reasoning for this identification at length in "Etruscan Roman Remains." This, however, doesn't prevent Hutton from deceptively proclaiming that Leland has provided "no evidence" for this assertion, and interjecting that Aradia is clearly but Herodias from Christian tradition.<br /><br />As a matter of fact, Carlo Ginzburg has catalogued long-standing traditions of witchcraft-like beliefs in precisely the same area of Italy as Leland's Vangelo. Furthermore, Ginzburg has even provided ample substantiating evidence for the Pagan origins of the name Aradia.<br /><br />A central argument in Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon" is that by the time of the witch-trials there was no pagan religion still surviving in Europe to be construed as witchcraft, and thus accused ‘witches’ could not have been Pagans. Hutton elsewhere even misrepresents Ginzburg as never proposing that pagan survivals’ featured in the beliefs and practices of any of the accused. In fact, the major thrust of Ginzburg's "Ecstasies" is precisely the opposite.<br /><br />...And this is by far not the only instance of Hutton misrepresenting the conclusions of other scholars as "overwhelming evidence" of the validity of Hutton's own theories.<br /><br />- David GriffinImperator David Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569334890339311989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-31277375717492960672010-11-06T00:17:08.160-07:002010-11-06T00:17:08.160-07:00Here in Finland the old folk religion survived at ...Here in Finland the old folk religion survived at least until early 20th century (of course in somewhat syncretic form, help was asked from Mary and the saints often in the same runos which also turned to the spirits of the nature, ancestors, and the old gods).<br /><br />All this is a well researched and publisized fact.<br /><br />The same goes for the Baltic countries and large parts of western Russia.<br /><br />Maybe Hutton doesn't believe Finland and these other North-East European countries are actually part of Europe?<br /><br />Mikael R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-22474090171413223912010-11-05T22:41:01.381-07:002010-11-05T22:41:01.381-07:00Care Frater VLM.
Of course authenticity and viabi...Care Frater VLM.<br /><br />Of course authenticity and viability are certainly NOT dependent upon age. <br /><br />However, in seeking to understand the Golden Dawn, for example, its place within the context of the entire Continental European Hermetic and Rosicrucian traditions yields a far deeper understanding than merely considering it as an isolated phenomenon, as so often has occurred due to Anglo-centric myopia.<br /><br />The same is the case with Pagan religion, as clearly illustrated by the comments of Frater Peregrin, who, despite my having clarified the matter over and over for him, tenaciously considers only Wicca as though the entire spectrum of European Paganism begins and ends with the British isles.<br /><br />Fraternally,<br />David GriffinImperator David Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569334890339311989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-63301930968334306902010-11-05T22:23:00.821-07:002010-11-05T22:23:00.821-07:00Care Frater Peregrin,
Once again, you are falling...Care Frater Peregrin,<br /><br />Once again, you are falling into the trap of Anglo-centric myopia.<br /><br />Pagan does not = Wicca.<br /><br />Europe does not = England.<br /><br />Activity that is "publicly known" does not = activity.<br /><br />Fraternally,<br />David GriffinImperator David Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569334890339311989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-25558866271646502792010-11-05T18:07:43.707-07:002010-11-05T18:07:43.707-07:00In the internet age, finding one's "grain...In the internet age, finding one's "grain of salt" can be as easy as using an academic search engine to look up the latest research on opposing opinions. It is really a pity that people will attach themselves to ideas they like and vigorously defend them when they have not even gone through the effort of looking at it from other (often dissenting) angles. Confirmation bias, indeed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009778570667265968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-73614908754151792582010-11-05T17:19:46.778-07:002010-11-05T17:19:46.778-07:00Mr Griffin,
I wonder, what is the harm or help, i...Mr Griffin,<br /><br />I wonder, what is the harm or help, in the age of something, in terms of its viability?<br /><br />Does something being "Older," suddenly mean that it is more reliable, or more authentic, than something that is not?<br /><br />What does it matter whether the documents are 130 years old, or 1300 years old... if the information is the same in them?<br /><br />Regards,<br />VLMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8814337050017726886.post-26684309044622544042010-11-05T17:03:58.705-07:002010-11-05T17:03:58.705-07:00Thanks for this post, GH Fr.
Philip Heselton and ...Thanks for this post, GH Fr.<br /><br />Philip Heselton and Ronald Hutton are not really at odds,as evidenced by Prof Hutton's warm foreword to his books. Where they disagree is simply that Hesleton pushes the envelope back a few decades than Hutton to earlier in the 20th century. Even if he is right, hardly a major blow to the generally agreed thesis by lots of scholars, Anthropologists included, about Wicca's origins.<br /><br />Amount of RELIGIOUS pagan activity in Europe(not just artistic/philiosophical clubs) or customs etc BEFORE the 1950s = virtually zero. <br /><br />Amount of religious pagan activity after 1950s ce (well really about mid 60s) = lots and lots. <br /><br />Publication of Gardner's work and publicising of Wicca = 1950s-1960s.<br /><br />You do the math :)Peregrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508191641503321789noreply@blogger.com